Proptech panel: Balancing innovation and adoption
Building an innovative product is only half the challenge for a proptech founder. Convincing a traditional industry to change the way it works is often the harder part.
In this Proptech Association Australia panel, association vice president Jennifer Harrison was joined by three winners from the Proptech Awards 2022: Robert Coorey of Archistar.ai, Trish Mackie-Smith of inndox and Mickael Roger of PropHero.
The founders shared their journeys and discussed why customer inertia is the biggest obstacle to adoption, why category-creating businesses should avoid easy analogies, how over-delivering for early clients validated their models, and how they funded growth, from venture capital and government grants to bootstrapping and low-code tools.
On the panel:
Jennifer Harrison – Vice President, Proptech Association Australia (moderator)
Robert Coorey – Co-founder, Archistar.ai
Trish Mackie-Smith – Co-founder, inndox
Mickael Roger – Co-founder, PropHero
The conversation covered:
(00:03) Jennifer Harrison introduces the Proptech Association Australia and the upcoming Proptech Awards.
(01:57) Robert Coorey introduces Archistar.ai and its role in property development assessment.
(02:45) Trish Mackie-Smith introduces inndox and winning Proptech Leader of the Year.
(03:23) Mickael Roger introduces PropHero and its award-winning consumer proptech platform.
(04:02) Robert gives the elevator pitch for Archistar: finding, assessing, designing and complying sites.
(06:50) Why category-creation businesses avoid lazy analogies like 'the Uber for X'.
(09:40) The biggest hurdle to adoption: user inertia and comfortable manual processes.
(16:53) Trish outlines inndox as a digital property logbook bringing trust to transactions.
(20:45) Comparing the lack of consumer protection in property purchases to buying a second-hand car.
(23:00) Pivoting from real estate agents to builders who have legal handover obligations.
(28:44) Mickael explains PropHero: replacing traditional buyer's agents with data-driven property wealth coaching.
(34:03) Validating product-market fit with paid ads and over-delivering for early clients.
(38:35) Robert on the long-term pain of switching to full automation and raising $40 million in VC funding.
(43:29) Trish on bootstrapping, grants, and how COVID forced builders to embrace digital tools.
(46:16) Mickael on raising $10 million and using low-code tools like Bubble to build an MVP on a budget.
(49:50) Roadmap sneak peeks: North American expansion for Archistar, disaster resilience for inndox, and freemium apps for PropHero.
In their words:
“Our biggest objection was that people were comfortable with the way they were doing things at the moment, and inertia. That was our, and still is our biggest challenge today.” – Robert Coorey
“The hardest part is execution. And once you get over that, then it's marketing and getting real customers and the revenue to keep going.” – Trish Mackie-Smith
“Our belief is that it's the combination of the machine and humans that gives the best results in term of performance, but also in term of bringing trust and making our clients confident.” – Mickael Roger
About the panel:
Robert Coorey is co-founder of Archistar.ai, a platform that helps property developers find, assess and design sites, which had raised around $40 million in venture capital at the time of the panel.
Trish Mackie-Smith is co-founder of inndox, the digital property logbook, and winner of the 2022 Proptech Leader of the Year award. She draws on her background as a property lawyer and more than 20 years running a building consultancy.
Mickael Roger is co-founder of PropHero, which uses data and AI alongside human advisers to help Australians invest in property.
Transcript:
This is an automated transcript of the panel, lightly edited for readability. Please excuse any errors.
Jennifer Harrison: Hello, and welcome to this month's The proptech Panel. I'm Jennifer Harrison and I'm the Vice President of the Proptech Association Australia. We are the peak body for proptech ventures in Australia. We are by proptech and for proptech. At this time of year, we are hosting one of our marquee annual events, which is the Proptech Awards. The Proptech Awards are open until Tuesday the 9th of May. You must be a member or an associate of the Proptech Association in order to be eligible to enter. And I'm very excited today that I have three winners of our 2021 and 2022 Proptech Awards here with me on the panel. Before I introduce them, in the spirit of reconciliation, I would like to acknowledge that I am on Wallumettagal ground in Sydney, and I would like to pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging. Now, the theme behind today's panel was to get some of our previous winners of Proptech Awards on to talk about their founding journey, and also to engage with a bit of a double-edged sword. So, in the proptech community, people are often coming up with very innovative, very new technology-enabled solutions. However, when you go to market, you'll find people are still using old-fashioned, maybe not so innovative and not so tech-enabled solutions. Nonetheless, they have a solution to the problem. So I'm curious to explore with the panel today, how do you get that adoption? How do you get those early wins and leverage it from there such that you can actually share the benefit of your technology-enabled solution with the market? It will probably come as absolutely no surprise that at the Proptech Association we are very committed advocates of the benefit of technology across all stages of the real estate life cycle, and we have three great examples of that on the panel with me here today. So let's meet my guests. My first guest is Rob Currie, who is a co-founder of Archistar.ai. Last year, Archistar won Most Innovative Scaleup in the Design, Build and Develop category of the Proptech Awards. Hello, Rob. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you today?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, great. Yeah, happy to be here from Sydney, and, uh, thanks for having us.
Jennifer Harrison: Perfect. Thank you for being with us. My second guest today is Trish Mackie-Smith from inndox. inndox won Most Innovative Startup in the 2021 Proptech Awards in the Properties and Facilities Management category, and Trish won the 2022 proptech Leader of the Year award. How are you today, Trish? Thanks so much for being with us.
Trish Mackie-Smith: I'm very well, thanks, Jennifer. Thank you for having me.
Jennifer Harrison: Thanks.
Trish Mackie-Smith: And, uh, looking forward to this session.
Jennifer Harrison: And where are you joining us from?
Trish Mackie-Smith: I'm joining you from Brisbane. Bris-Vegas.
Jennifer Harrison: Love it.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: And my third guest today is Mickael Roger, who is a co-founder of PropHero. Last year, PropHero took out Most Innovative Startup in the Consumer proptech category, and they also won the Best of the Best award in the Startup category in our 2022 awards. Hello, Mick. Thank you so much for joining us today. How are you?
Mickael Roger: Hey. I'm good, Jen. Thanks for having me. Uh, joining you from Sydney today.
Jennifer Harrison: Lovely. All right, Rob, if I can come to you first. Can you kick off, please, by telling us, in a nutshell, what does Archistar do? Give us your elevator pitch.
Robert Coorey: Yeah, cool. Well, essentially, um, we're a platform for property developers to find, assess, design, and also comply, um, with their sites that they try and pick for development. So, um, that's in an elevator pitch. You know, we can give you a half an hour demo and show you every single feature and function.
Jennifer Harrison: No, an elevator pitch. A 10-second, 35-word elevator pitch-
Robert Coorey: There you go
Jennifer Harrison: ... gives an elevator pitch. Thank you for that. And where does the name come from? How did you pick on the name Archistar?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, so, um, essentially the software was mostly for architects and, um, it was really assessing designs at the start. So it was basically meant to be, um, like architects and kind of like a star rating. So we, we kind of clubbed them together to get Archistar.
Jennifer Harrison: Lovely. Okay, cool. So a star rating for architects to help them, uh, find land that could be suitable for development.
Robert Coorey: Yeah, it was really assessing their designs. Yeah, so like basically you'd upload your, your design and then, um, we'd assess it against, like, sunlight and cross-ventilation-
Jennifer Harrison: Okay
Robert Coorey: ... and a, and a whole stack of different environmental factors. So, uh, we still do that today, um, which is why the name's still there. But, um, we, we do a lot of other things as well now.
Jennifer Harrison: Yes.
Robert Coorey: So it's, yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: So, but if you sort of, going back to the really early days, how did you get your head around the problem and assess the problem that you set out to solve? And why did you think that technology needed to be the solution?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, I think in the early days, um, we had, we started off with a learning academy called the Institute of Digital Design. Um, and essentially we had, like, a lot of universities and corporates that were using that online learning platform to really upskill in digital, like digital skills in the architecture, you know, engineering and construction space. And so we had these really cool innovative courses on there. What we found was that, um, a lot of the corporates and, and medium-sized businesses would come to us and say, "Hey, like, it's great, like we love learning about all this stuff, but we'd actually... Can you guys, have any bandwidth to do some of this stuff for us?" And so we started to see, like, a lot of really similar requests come through, and worked out that, um, it would make more sense to actually build a platform where, you know, we could've enabled people to do this themselves. But we would do the heavy lifting of the initial tech build, and then people could just, you know, kinda log in and, and do what they need to do. So it really kinda came organically from, um, just kind of inbound requests coming in for different features and functions over time.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. And when were those early days? What, what year are we talking about?
Robert Coorey: Looking at, like, 2017, 20, you know, 2018. That kind of timeframe. Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Now, I'm curious to know i- exploring this, you know, is it better to stand out or fit in? Often I see startups try and use the analogy to explain their value proposition, and to try to close the understanding gap quickly. So they'll say, "We're the Netflix of this," or, "We're the Spotify of that," or, "The Amazon o- of something else." I'm wondering when you were first, you know, prob- probably trying to raise capital or maybe going out to find those early, um, clients, did you try and use the analogy approach? If you did, what was it-
Robert Coorey: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... and did it work for you?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, so we didn't. Um, I think that we're, we're, we're so far removed from many of those different business models that it, it, it never made sense for our business to have that analogy. Like, I can see how it's appealing. You know, like, if you're the Uber for dentists or, you know, uh, the, the, the Netflix for music creators or some- something like that. But, um, I think for our business, like, we wouldn't... we never really fit into any of those models. So it didn't make sense for us, but I, I can kinda see a benefit for other businesses if, um, if you're kind of, like, a subset of one of those categories.
Jennifer Harrison: So what routes did you choose when you were going to market? How did you find those first clients to-
Robert Coorey: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... get you post-revenue and be those early adopters?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, I think for us, we were quite fortunate that we had the learning business, which we still run today, like that online academy, um, as a, as a way to kind of springboard into, to building our own software. So, um, really, like, kinda leaning into those earlier requests about, um, you know, "Could you do this?" or, "Could you do that?" And then, so what we would find is if we, if we did something for, like, one architect or, or one engineering company or one property developer, then it wasn't too hard then to go and speak to other ones, say, "Hey, X, Y, Z is doing this. Um, you know, like, are you having some similar challenges in your business? Do you wanna have a look at this new technology that we've put together?" So I, I really feel like your first, your first one or two or three clients in any kind of industry are the most important, and you really have to over-service them and, and look after them substantially, because that's a real springboard to, to kinda growing the business from there. So yeah, customer number one is super important.
Jennifer Harrison: Hmm. So in the early days it was mostly, like, one-on-one meetings using, using the network.
Robert Coorey: Yeah. A- and we completely over-delivered. Like, whatever we would charge, we would deliver 5 or 10 times the value.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah.
Robert Coorey: Even if it didn't make economic sense for us at the time, because you just need that... You really do need those good early case studies. So again, like, sometimes people fall into the trap of like, "Okay, well, you paid for this, you're getting this only." But really for those... And I think a- as you go on, like, you know, you, you have to build a sustainable business, but at the start, you know, if you can make it work, it's always recommended to over-deliver.
Jennifer Harrison: Hmm. Did you ha- did you get a lot of objections? And if you did, how did you work to overcome them?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, I think the funny thing is, is, um, we were kind of creating a new category and, like I said, building some new software that never existed before. Like, it wasn't like we were building a CRM improvement over Salesforce. Like, so none of this was really, like, a, an incremental improvement of what they already had. It was a complete different process and different way of doing things. So o- our biggest objection was that people were kinda comfortable with the way they were doing things at the moment, and, like, inertia. Um, that was our, and, and still is our biggest challenge today. Like, it's not like... Yeah, so that's, um, that's something that we always wrestle with as, like, whe- whenever you're kinda creating a new category or introducing, like, a brand-new type of software into market.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah. I think that will resonate probably with e- with e- with every founder-
Robert Coorey: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... and that actually goes to the heart of what I wanted to, to discuss today. Uh, everyone will already have a solution to the problem. It may not be as good as your solution, it may not be technology-enabled, but they'll be like, "Oh yeah, we've got a team that handles that." They've already got a solution. And so I think sometimes the challenge in going to market is actually a lot more difficult than a lot of founders actually originally estimate. Um-
Robert Coorey: Yeah, especially, like, incumbency's always hard to, um, unseat, and, and sometimes the incumbency can be b- just a manual process that they're comfortable with, and, and that works well for them at this stage. So, um, yeah, like, I think it's always good to never underestimate, um, the incumbency. Like, a lot of people just look at things and go, "Oh, we're way better than that solution," so you know, they'll, they'll just move across because ours is better. But not always the case. Like, they might have, like, they might be, like, a three-year contract, or they might be in a... You know, they might just be really happy with their old clunky, you know, sticky tape solution. So, um, yeah, it do- it can take a while, um, and quite often longer than you expect, to unseat existing solutions or, or processes that are there.
Jennifer Harrison: And change just in and of itself always presents a risk.
Robert Coorey: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Changing, you know, governance, changing suppliers is a risk from a corporate perspective.
Robert Coorey: Yeah. The bigger the business, the, the harder it is. So, um, again, like, the small businesses, like, it may be a faster process 'cause they're like, "Oh yeah, we like that. Let, let's just do it." Um, but you know, once you go to those medium and big-sized ones, like, th- that's why the sales cycle is generally longer in those ones and, and why you have to charge a bit more because of the sales, the sales process.
Jennifer Harrison: Have you changed your go-to-market approach since those very early days? What have you learned works for you, and what have you learned doesn't work for you?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, it's a good question. Um, I, I think we still do things... Like we've kind of evolved and got more efficient over time, but what we generally kind of still have, um, the same kind of three go-to-markets as we always have. So we've always had like a digital presence where, you know, we're doing advertising, um, on, on your social media platforms, on Google, et cetera, LinkedIn. And then ha- have a way for people to kind of come to us digitally. So that's always been a hallmark of what we've done, um, like most businesses. And then we've got a, like we call it the SMB team, like small and medium business team that, that tackle the, the small and mid-size accounts. And then we've always kind of had an enterprise team and government where they're looking out for those chunkier contracts with longer lead times. And, and that model's served us well, like having, having all three. And then at, at various stages in our maturity, like we've had more or less focus in each of the different areas. Um, and you know, like, so I think it's just, um... it's kind of adapting to what your strategy is for that, that 12-month or 24-month period and saying, "Well, okay, are we, are we going after more, you know, that, that, that small end of the market, so we're gonna go harder on digital and the SMB space, or are we going for the higher end of the market and it's enterprise and government?" I think as a, you know, as a small business ourselves, you can't, you can't equally invest everywhere all the time. You know, you can't be... As much as you'd like to, like you have to make... There's always a trade-off with resources and how much you can invest in different areas. So-
Jennifer Harrison: Mm
Robert Coorey: ... yeah, we've had different, different kind of focus at different times in our journey.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. And have you got any experience of doing any of the big expos, you know, the big kind of convention center events?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, I think we've, um... A- as a sponsor, um, yes, like some of them. We haven't done our own big one yet. Like the biggest we've done is probably, probably like maybe 300 people we had at the Crown. Um, so we had a reasonably large event there. Um, we've done, we've done like our sweet spot's about that 200 to 300 kind of person number for our own events at, at the max. We don't normally go much above that 'cause we do... We, we still want... Well, we still want people to be a bit, like, intimate and, and have a good conversation and, and feel like that, um... So I, I feel like it's a whole different level of organization and, um, and maturity. Like I, I feel like you'd need an events team to kind of go beyond that. Whereas like we all kind of chip in and our marketing team runs our, our events internally. And then that's why about that 300 mark is where it kind of taps out where I feel you can do it yourself versus needing to have like either a dedicated team yourself or, or working with a third party to do those big kind of conference events.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. And this might be a plug.
Robert Coorey: Hmm.
Jennifer Harrison: But what did it mean, uh, to be a winner in last year's Proptech Awards?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, look, I think it was, um... it was one of those things where it's, it's kind of like with your peers and, and the industry. So it's very special to win that kind of award where, you know, you look at the caliber of companies, um, that, that are also up there and nominated. And yeah, like it's, it's very humbling to be even considered in the same breath as, as a lot of them that are out there. So we- we're super excited that we're able to win it. Um, we felt that it, it kind of... it's a really good mark of, of where we are as a business. And yeah, like, um, lo- lo- love being part of the association and, um, be- being in the mix.
Jennifer Harrison: Well, perfect. Well, well thank you so much. Um, we're, we're working very hard at the moment to make this year's Proptech Awards even, uh, bigger and better. And, uh, I think we've actually released the ticketing details. In fact, I'm very sure we have on, on emails and it'll be on social very soon. Uh, we have booked the Fullerton Hotel in Sydney. It's Martin Place. Uh, last year we sold out. Uh, we had over 300 people in the room last year. Uh, this year we've booked for 500.
Robert Coorey: Phew.
Jennifer Harrison: So there are-
Robert Coorey: And you've got a great location. The Fullerton's just next to our office here in George Street.
Jennifer Harrison: Oh, perfect. There you go.
Robert Coorey: So yeah, cra- cracking spot. We know where to find you.
Jennifer Harrison: Wonderful. Um, thank you so much, Rob. Uh, Trish, let's come and have a chat about inndox. So starter question, always the same. In a nutshell, give us your elevator pitch.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yeah, sure. So inndox is all about bringing trust to property transactions. And how do we do this? Well, it's essentially a property management system for owners and tenants. They get provided with inndox from their builder, property developer, or real estate agent, and this enables them to maintain their property. Um, all stakeholders can access critical information, and this helps with buying, selling, leasing, refinancing, rebuilding, whatever you're doing with your property throughout the entire life cycle.
Jennifer Harrison: Fantastic. And so where does the name come from?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Okay. It's an unusual name. It's a made-up name, and we deliberately did that because we wanted to trademark it, and we've done that. Um, so that gives us some protection. And inndox, uh, means... I-N-N can stand for accommodation or innovation, and, uh, dox is for documents. So it's the, you know, innovation and accommodation of documents. Um, and s-
Jennifer Harrison: I love it. That's awesome.
Trish Mackie-Smith: So yeah, that's where it comes from. And also we wanted it to, um, to be different so that when someone Google searches it, um, not all these other... or g- they go searching for, um, something similar, that we're... we stand out. If you search for inndox, we're the first there, not 30 other, um, uh, similar, um, products or com- competitors.
Jennifer Harrison: Back to the early days of inndox. How did you get your head around the problem? How did you assess the problem, and why did you think technology needed to be the solution?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Okay. Well, I think it stems back from my background as a property lawyer, and then running a building consultancy for over 20 years, uh, with my co-founder who's a builder. And, um, during that time, we saw lots of problems, um, in the industry, and we were trying to solve them. Um, and it really came back to, um, not having information available when you needed it, um, and a lack of transparency. Um, there were cover-ups. There's corruption. And, uh, and identified that it was the buyer beware law that was, um, there to protect the seller, not the buyer. There's not much consumer protection for buyers of property. And I thought, "How can, how can I, um, do something to improve the situation so that, um, you can trust what you're buying?" And so I looked, um, at changing the laws. I petitioned Queensland Parliament back in 2016, and I knew that would be a long, drawn-out process. So then I thought, "Well, um, what can we do, um, to bring, um, a centralized, um, uh, platform that people can trust? Let's look at technology." So that's how I thought, "Yeah, I'll, um..." I applied for a, a accelerator, proptech Accelerator Program, and, uh, and the concept of inndox to have a centralized platform for critical, all your critical property documents, um, all in one place so that, um, it's trusted during, for any transactions. Um, and inndox was born. Um, and yeah, so we've taken it from there. We've, um, actually executed on the idea so that non- non-tech, um, founders, um, are now running a tech business quite successfully.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah. It, it is a little bit curious, or it seems a little bit curious to me that if you go to buy a car, let's say you buy a secondhand car, you'll get the logbook. You'll ask, have the opportunity to actually ask the owner of that car some questions. You can search government databases to see whether there is any, um, financing that is secure on that car. But when it comes to buying a house or-
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yep
Jennifer Harrison: ... an apartment, which is a much bigger transaction in terms-
Trish Mackie-Smith: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Harrison: ... of money, you don't have that opportunity to get the logbook or, uh, you know, there, there might be a very limited opportunity through your solicitor or conveyancer to ask some questions. Uh, and it's a much more significant purchase, not just for the money, but in terms of the roof, um, that is over your, goes over your head.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Absolutely. Yes. So that's what's been driving me. We're purposely- um, purpose-led, um, and we want to make a difference to the industry.
Jennifer Harrison: So I'm curious to know, in your early pitch decks or conversations, did you try the analogy? Did you try the, "We're the Uber of this, the Netflix of that, the Amazon o- of something else"?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Not quite. Um, it was more the logbook, as you, uh, described it. It sort of resonated with most people to describe it as a digital property logbook. And also, that term is actually well-known around the world. In fact, in the UK, there's a Property Logbook Association, and we've been invited to join that. So it is a term that's well-known, and therefore, we did use, um... Yeah, inndox is a digital property logbook. Like you have a logbook for your car with all the service history, it passes from owner to owner. But we're more than that. We- we're digital. Um, and it's, um, yeah, it's trust. It's, it's, um, a new way of doing things.
Jennifer Harrison: So who were your first clients? Um-
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... who were your first early adopters to get you to the post-revenue stage?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yeah. So we initially thought real estate agents would be the way to go. Um, but we had, yeah, of course, we went out and spoke to a lot of real estate agents and, and, uh, and then we realized that builders had a obligation to provide, um, information, uh, to the property owner at handover. Um, and it's a law. Um, and a lot of builders out there don't know what to hand over, which we discovered. And, uh, so we approached builders. Um, but unfortunately, builders, they're, they're reluctant to change their ways. They, um, they're used to, um, yeah, doing, you know, what their father or grandfather did before them. Um, so, um, we found that there was a challenge there. But our first, our first customers were the innovative builders and con- well, construction companies and property developers.
Jennifer Harrison: And h- how were you going to market to find those builders and property developers? Was it lots of one-on-one and lots of networking?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Uh, well, the first one, uh, came about because I got up, got, got up on stage and presented, um, at an industry event. And I also believe in not, not, um, going stealth mode, but to- To be out there, um, and get awareness out there, education. Uh, so I was, I was up on stage and, uh, someone in the audience who happened to be a, um, director of a big, uh, construction company in South Australia came up to me after the event and said, "I wanna use it." Um, so that was, uh... So I do recommend, um, accepting all those opportunities to get up on stage, present, uh, wherever you can. Pitch, pitch, pitch, um, constantly. Get known.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah, it's interesting what you mentioned there about being in stealth mode. Uh, very occasionally I'll come across a founder at some kind of startup ecosystem event, and they'll say, "Oh, I'm working on something, but I can't really tell you much about it, you know, because we're in stealth mode." And I kind of internally sigh.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Mm.
Jennifer Harrison: Uh, I think people massively overestimate, uh, the, the, the, the chance of someone stealing their idea.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Harrison: And they equally underestimate how hard it is to do what we're talking about now, actually, you know, get your MVP-
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yes
Jennifer Harrison: ... and go to market. You live or die by your execution and your ability to go to market and get adoption in, in my opinion.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yes. Yes, that is so true. The hardest part is execution. Uh, and once you get over that, um, then it's marketing and getting real customers and the revenue to keep going.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah. So how have you refined your go-to-market approach since those early days? Where are you focusing your resources at the moment?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yeah. Okay. Um, well, we've had some traction with builders, and, uh, we have refined our messaging. Um, I believe in always staying in close contact with your customers, uh, listening to them, um, always, um, getting as much feedback as you can. But do not just go ahead and build something because one or two have said, "I'd like that feature." 'Cause you're wasting time and money, and then when you could be generating more revenue from getting more customers. So, um, it's all about, um, refining the product to suit the market, listening to them and what, um, what works, what doesn't work for them, um, because they're everything to you, your customers.
Jennifer Harrison: Absolutely. And what did it mean to you, uh, to be a winner in 2021 of the best startup in properties and facilities management, and in 2022 to win Proptech Leader of The Year?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Amazing. Um, it was the highlight of my life, quite frankly, and, um, not just for me, but for my team. And to see that recognition for all the hard work, the persistence, and everything that has gone into this, um, we really appreciate that that's been recognized. And, uh, and I say to anybody, go for an award, because the, the value it brings, not just in the exposure, um, of your innovation to others, to bring, um, customers and partners and investors, it's also for your team. And they will, um... It, it's a morale boost, and then they will, um, be happy to continue working for you. Um, because for me, it was a, a team achievement.
Jennifer Harrison: Wonderful. Thank you, Trish. Uh, Mick, let's come and talk about PropHero. So same question to you as I've kicked off with everyone else. Explain PropHero in a nutshell. Give us your elevator pitch.
Mickael Roger: Sure. So PropHero is a platform that replaces buyer's agents and property wealth advisors to buy investment properties. So concretely, when you join the PropHero platform, you get assigned a property coach. We'll define your property investment strategy. We will find the absolute best investment properties across the entire country that we've selected with our proprietary data models. Once you find a property that's you- that fits i- u- your objectives, we'll do all of the work for you, for you to buy this property. So think about conveyancing, getting your home loan, getting your property management, renovation, et cetera. We'll take care of everything for you. And then over time, you can use... The platform will tell you how to continue building your portfolio. So we'll tell you, "Hey, uh, you've made 200K equity last year. Time to buy your next investment, and h- and we've already found it for you." Or, "Hey, uh, time to refinance this property. Uh, we found a better rate for you." Or, "Hey, we found a better insurance," et cetera. So we are your property wealth creation for life, completely digital and using data to outperform the market.
Jennifer Harrison: Love it. So second question, where does the name PropHero come from?
Mickael Roger: So before launching PropHero, we interviewed honestly hundreds of people to understand, hey, uh, did you already invest in property? And, uh, if not, why? And so many people actually don't invest in property. And what we kept hearing was, "Oh, no, it's too complex, it's too scary. Uh, I don't trust real estate agents. Uh, I'm worried I will lose my savings. Uh, I don't know, and I don't have access to data, and I'm not sure." And we thought, wow, uh, people, uh, know that they could do something, but they don't. And what... We thought, okay, well, we have to help you reach the stars. And this sentence kept coming back to our ears. Hey, uh, we need to help- These people reach the stars. And so, okay, well, uh, what they need is to become superheroes. And, uh, we thought, okay, well, uh, what can we do with it? Okay, so we want people to become property superheroes, and that's how we got to PropHero.
Jennifer Harrison: So tell us a little bit more about the challenges and problems that people would face if they're trying to invest in property themselves, and how did you come up with the idea that data and AI and a digital platform could be the solution?
Mickael Roger: Yeah. So before launching PropHero, I was a, a consultant at McKinsey, and I was one of the leaders of the data and AI practice. And just like many consultants, I had a little bit of money but no time, and I, I, I wanted to invest my savings, uh, across different asset classes, including property. So I hired a traditional buyer's agent, gave her $45,000, and then I realized that everything was based on gut feeling. I was buying where she had been living her entire life, whether or not it was the right place at the right time, uh, to invest. Uh, it was crazy expensive, and also the entire process took me hundreds of hours. And then I was thinking, oh, wow, in my, like, day-to-day job we are reinventing industries with data and I- AI and amazing, uh, uh, tech platforms, and in real estate it's still very old school. And then so I thought, wow, uh, it's so complex, so time-consuming, and so biased by gut feeling rather than analysis that, wow, this is a problem we have to solve. And so left my job, launched PropHero with the idea that, yeah, we're going to use data and AI to scan the entire market and find the, uh, best investment properties, and we will have, like, a beautiful, uh, app to make the entire process, like, 99% less time-consuming. So that's kind of, like, how we, we, we got to the idea of, yeah, wanting to save you time and make you get higher returns.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. So in terms of explaining what you do by using an analogy, have you tried the, where the Netflix, Amazon, Uber approach?
Mickael Roger: So no. Uh, I keep saying, okay, I think we are the PropHero of PropHero. Um, the reason being that I feel that in property there is an element of a human trust component to it. And, uh, some US players have tried to go digital only, and many of them have actually failed. And our belief is that it's the combination of the machine and humans that gives the best results in term of, like, performance, but also in term of, like, bringing, uh, trust and making our clients confident that, uh, that, uh, their investments will indeed outperform. And I don't think there are, like, really, like, tech players that really have this play of, like, human and machine all together. So no, we are the PropHero of PropHero. I haven't found a better analogy.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah, I think it i- it's always a double-edged sword of trying to use the analogy. It, it can help you to, for some people, to get some grasp of what you do quickly.
Mickael Roger: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: But it won't be the, it won't be perfect. It won't be-
Mickael Roger: Exactly. Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... completely right. So it is-
Mickael Roger: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... it is a bit of, a bit of a double, a double-edged sword. Um, how did you, in the early days, get your first clients?
Mickael Roger: So we did two things. Before launching the company, we, uh, ran, uh, paid ads to try different value propositions, different messaging. And we just, like, measured how many people clicked. And when they clicked, we just, like, talked to these people on the phone, pitched different value propositions, different ideas, and saw which one actually resonated with them. That was, like, step one, to make sure there was some early sign of product market fit. Then, uh, for the first clients, and as Robert was saying, we decided to start small and over-deliver to these people. And so we are very transparent on the fact we are an early company, and also very transparent on, like, why we believed w- our data models were indeed working and that our process of doing things was actually working. We started small, having one-on-one chats. First few clients, we indeed spent so much time with them and over-delivered, like, a million times. Um, and then what we thought is that, okay, well, making these first happy clients will allow us to learn a lot and also get some, like, very good, uh, uh, feedback, and then have these people refer clients to us. So yeah, uh, one-on-one meetings, uh, chats in cafes, phone calls, uh, Zoom calls, and yeah, and that's how we started, uh, in the early days.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. And so fast-forward to today, how have you refined that approach, and where are you spending your marketing resources today?
Mickael Roger: Yeah. So I think, uh, two dimensions to this. One is that now a big acquisition for us is, uh, B2B2C partnerships. So typically we would, we are partnering with, uh, home loan brokers or wealth planners or, um, or wealth managers, and th- and we cross-share, uh, clients to each other. And think, like, if you're a home loan broker, what you want is your clients to buy and to buy great properties, because if they buy great properties, they will build equity and cash to buy the next one. And so it's kind of like a win-win-win relationships. Uh, we share pa- we, we, we share clients together. Their clients are super happy. They make great investments, and they buy again. So this B2B2C channel, uh, is really big for us now. That's one. And the second thing is actually we believe that the best marketing is no marketing. So the best marketing is just, like, when, uh, your clients are so happy about, uh, their investments with you, that they say good things about you to their family and friends. And actually, we have, like, 80% of our clients refer family and friends. So you have, like, this great, like, snowball effect of free clients coming in. Uh, so we still do online marketing and PR, et cetera, but actually, yeah, like, uh, we, we really feel that, I mean, we spend much more on improving the customer experience over time than on marketing, because we feel it's, like, the best bang for buck in the long run.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. And in terms of winning, uh, best startup consumer proptech and also the best of the best, the o- you were the winner of the overall startup of the year last year at the Proptech Awards. What did that mean to you?
Mickael Roger: So I think that, uh, it was actually a game changer for us in a way that when you're a very early stage company, no one knows about you, and it's hard to build, uh, trust and have the legitimacy to, uh, to convince people to go with you, right? And actually, well, uh, the day after receiving the awards, uh, we've put them on our website, in our email signatures, and in our sales pitch. We are saying, "Hey, guys. Independent people from the industry who know how, how things works, who have done significant due diligence on us, say, 'Hey, these guys are not too bad.'" And I think that for us, like massive credibility, uh, push, uh, and yeah, and, and also like an amazing time. Like, I think the event was just exceptional last year. Like, the, the atmosphere and the quality of the people and the companies wa- was just like so amazing. So like amazing time, and yeah, like a massive credibility push for us. Uh, yeah, which was really, really helpful.
Jennifer Harrison: Well, that's fantastic to hear. Thank you so much, Mick. Um, if anyone would like to ask a question to the panel, please, uh, pop it into the Q&A or the chat, uh, and we'll put those questions to the panel while they are with us live. Uh, there will be a recording of this panel shared on Stone & Chalk's YouTube. Stone & Chalk are our event sponsor, and this video will be made available on their YouTube channel in a couple of days' time. Uh, while we're waiting to see if there are any questions from the panel, Rob, can I circle back to you, please? Um, I'm wondering, looking back, can you identify a tipping point?
Robert Coorey: Um, good question. Um, it's kind of been a really fast kinda growth all the way through. So it feels like the whole, whole kind of last five, six years has been a tipping point in general. So, um, fi- finding it hard to kind of think on the spot of an exact time where, um, that there was a real tipping point left or right. Yeah, I think actually we, when we first started doing, um, started building our own software, like we used kind of like a hybrid of, um, manual and automated methods, and I think there was a point where we said, um, "Look, we're gonna go just to full automation." And i- it was a little bit painful because, um, we knew there was gonna be a gap in our revenue while we were building that fu- full automation out, but in hindsight, it's worked out to be the right strategy, um, to kind of, yeah, like sometimes you gotta make those tough decisions to say, "Okay, we know this is the right thing for the business. There might be a bit of short-term pain for two or three months or so, but in the long term it's better." So I think having the guts to make that decision, um, has kinda put us in, in a good position for the long term.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. And how have you funded the business?
Robert Coorey: Um, so we've, we've been very lucky to have some great investors. Yeah, so we've, we've raised a fair bit of capital now, so that we've raised about $40 million of, of venture capital. So, um, yeah. And but, like w- we, again, we'll... I think timing's quite, quite lucky with a lot of things in life. Um, so like we, we were quite lucky to be funded all, all the way through, um, a really big growth phase in terms of venture capital funding in Australia and globally. And yeah, I do realize like in the last 6 to 12 months, it's been a lot harder to, to kinda raise capital. So, um, yeah, I think a lot, sometimes it's good timing with a lot of things.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. And a question's just come up on the chat, which, uh, I think is interesting in that sometimes I hear founders say, "Oh, it would be so much easier if people just wanted to buy what I've already built."
Robert Coorey: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Harrison: So it's wonderful when customers give you feedback, but if that feedback means you need to add new features to your product, you've now got a decision to make. So a question's come up on the chat. How do you discern what customer feedback is valuable and worth adopting in your business?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, I think, um, Trish had some good messaging around that as well in, in her presentation. And, um, I think like if you look at our roadmap and our backlog, you can't jump. It's that big you can't jump over it. You know, like we've got literally hundreds and hundreds of, of requests of things that people want. So, um, we, we just do our best to kinda score them and prioritize them and rank them. Um, but it's a never-ending battle, and there's always people that are disappointed. So, um, yeah, I think it's one of those battles that you never win, um, I've learned. Like the, the backlog's endless, and it continues to grow. And so it's really about looking at, okay, what's your team? Um, what's the capacity? Where are they at? What's your priorities of business? What are, what are customers asking for? And I think there's a lot of frameworks online and a lot of science you can put behind it. But in, in our instance, like we do, we do look at the data, we do look at what customers want, but it does come down to a business decision at the end of the day. Um, which is, yeah, a, a, a bit of data and a bit of gut. Yep.
Jennifer Harrison: Fantastic. Thanks, Rob. Trish-
Robert Coorey: Cool
Jennifer Harrison: ... um, same questions to you. Looking back, can you see a tipping point looking back? Um, how have you funded the business? And how do you balance that line between, you know, responding to customer feedback, but also getting a product to market?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Mm. Well, the tipping point for us was definitely during COVID because, uh, that meant that our builder customers, they, they were our initial customers, uh, got used to having virtual meetings and using their computer. So that was, um, really helpful for us. We could demonstrate our product online, um, and we could onboard them online, do everything online and, uh, and it was acceptable. So that really helped us, um, with, yeah- Um, getting more customers on board more quickly and efficiently, um, during COVID. So, and also, um, for those businesses that weren't thinking about digitizing, they were suddenly, um, seeing that they actually should, um, and need to, um, look at digitization. So that certainly helped us. Um, and the next question was, was that how do you-
Jennifer Harrison: Um, how have you funded the business?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Oh, yes. Well, um, mainly self-funded. Uh, although we have received some investment from VCs and, um, high net worth angels, um, just for a small stake of equity. So to us, equity is very, um, valuable. And, uh, and we've also raised, uh, from government grants. Uh, and apart from that, yeah, we've bootstrapped and, and also from revenue. Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. Okay. And how do you, you know, walk that line between discerning what customer feedback is valuable? And someone's kind of put a similar question now in the Q&A saying, you know, how do, how do you prioritize? Over-delivering is great, but there has to be a secret to balancing the expense of building those extra features whilst still getting a product into the market.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Well, for us, we have made that mistake, um, not only building features that some of our customers ask for, but features that we thought, um, our customers needed, and we've wasted time and money, um, in the past. So we've learnt a lot and, um, really you have to look at the core product and, uh, and how many people are asking for that same, um, feature.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm.
Trish Mackie-Smith: If, if it's only a small percentage, you, you put it on the back burner. Um, but if it's, like, majority, for sure you have to investigate further.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. Interesting. And Mick, same questions to you. Um, can you look back, even though PropHero is, is only just coming up to two years, so it's not looking at, look- looking back over a very long period of time, but can, can you identify a tipping point?
Mickael Roger: I think when I look back, indeed, it's only been, like, uh, yeah, like, 20, 21 months, uh, that we've been, uh, around. I think the most important moments were linked to people and having the right people at the right time. I think, well, the most important moment in the life of PropHero was finding my co-founder, Pablo, right? A sup- a friend of mine and super successful entrepreneur. Like, without him, we wouldn't be, like, one tenth of, of, of where we are today. Uh, and then when I, when I look at some key people we have in the company today, these people had just, like, a massive impact on our growth, on our product, on how we do things. And I think, like, uh, having the, uh, maybe the luck to find the right people at the right time, uh, has been, yeah, like, the tipping points and allowing us to go to the next stage, uh, of PropHero.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how have you funded the business?
Mickael Roger: So look, we raised a total of $10 million, uh, in two rounds. First round was a mix of, uh, VC and, uh, and angels. Uh, second round was just, like, six, seven months ago, uh, with, like, big global, uh, VCs. Um, and, uh, and also, like, yeah, like, I mean, our business model is, uh, is profitable. Um, so actually, yeah, like, uh, revenue and, uh, contribution margins fund, uh, m- I mean, all of our operations and cost of acquisition. We raise money mostly to, uh, to fund the tech build and the international expansion.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. And, uh, actually someone's put a, a, a question in the chat now actually asking the question, um, a- as a non-technical founder, how do you find the right, you know, technicol- technology resources to get your MVP to market?
Mickael Roger: So there are... So I mean, uh, my background is in data, but not in, not in product. I think that if you're not a technical person, like, it's indeed really hard at the beginning. My advice would be kind of like twofold. So one, uh, even without being a product, try your business ideas with families and friends, but more importantly, with the people who are going to pay for it one day, right? And really understand their pain points and understand how you can be, like, 10x, uh, better than them. Then on how to build, uh, your MVP, uh, what we did at the beginning is that we used a low-code, uh, agency. So we've got, like, technologies like Bubble, so, like, low-code, uh, that allow you to build, uh, a platform five times faster and, uh, like, saving, like, 5x the money. So even with a few tens of thousands of dollars, you can actually build a low-code MVP. You will probably, uh, throw it to the bin in one or two years, but it doesn't matter. You will learn so much and so fast that it actually, that it's gonna actually work. And also, like, anyway, like, uh, if you don't have a, a technical co-founder, some of these agencies, uh, are just, like, uh, really, really good just to, to test something at a very, uh, limited cost. That's what we did. Worked really well, and then we had the legitimacy to, like, uh, learn from the market and then raise money, and then find an amazing CTO. And yeah, so f- that was our path, which I think worked, worked pretty well.
Jennifer Harrison: Phenomenal. And, uh, last question, and I'll circle back, Rob and Trish, to you as well. Mick, are you able to give us a bit of a sneak peek? What is coming up on the PropHero roadmap?
Mickael Roger: Oh, uh, many things. So we are going to launch, uh, a freemium version of our app that will allow anyone to connect any property you may own around the world, uh, to see how your wealth is building and how your, what your cash flows are like, and also get personalized da- data driven recommendation on how to keep building your portfolio. There's a big thing happening, uh, in the next few days. Uh, also, um, we, uh, may launch, so we're going to launch new cities in both Australia and Spain, and we may launch a third country relatively soon.
Jennifer Harrison: I saw a little, uh, teasing, uh, post on social media this morning-
Mickael Roger: Yes. Yes, yes
Jennifer Harrison: ... actually, about what might be the next, uh, country PropHero launches in. Um, but thank you so much for joining us, uh, Mick. What's the best way for people to find out more about PropHero and also to connect with you personally?
Mickael Roger: Mickael Roger, mickael.roger@prophero.com or via LinkedIn. Uh, I'm there. I always respond to messages. Not very fast, but I always do.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay. Wonderful. Thank you so much for being with us today, Mick. Um, Rob, uh, can you give us a little bit of a sneak peek as to what's coming up on the Archistar roadmap?
Robert Coorey: Yeah. Look, I think, um, we're doing a lot of work in the, the small business, um, and prosumer end of the market. So, um, we're seeing a lot of features come out for that market where they haven't got big teams to help assess sites, so there's a lot of, a lot of work happening in that area. Um, and also, like, North American expansion is a big focus as well for the company at the moment. So yeah, it's keeping us busy.
Jennifer Harrison: That sounds very exciting.
Robert Coorey: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: And, uh, what's the best way for people to find out more about Archistar and also to connect with you personally?
Robert Coorey: Yeah, sure. L- LinkedIn's a great way. Um, love connecting people on there. You know, robertarchistar.ai is my email, and, um, our website, archistar.ai, is a, is a wealth of information.
Jennifer Harrison: Perfect. And, uh, Trish, can you give us a sneak peek as to what's coming up on the inndox roadmap? Sorry, I'm on mute. I'm on mute telling you you're on mute.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Uh, yes. Sorry about that. Uh, okay. We are now, uh, targeting real estate agents and, uh, now with the seller disclosure laws, uh, there's a bill in Parliament in Queensland, uh, our platform can help them, uh, provide that seller disclosure. And, uh, yeah, so we- we've got, um, real estate agents using our service, and we've, um, partnered with some, uh, real estate institute associations. Uh, and also we've got a disaster resilience aspect to our product, so yeah, we're, we're keeping busy as well.
Jennifer Harrison: Yes, I did note that, uh, last year during the, the terrible, uh, Northern New South Wales floods. I can only imagine if you're trying to put in an insurance claim to claim a new refrigerator, you know, to claim for certain works, if you don't have the evidence, uh, saved somewhere in the cloud to back that up-
Trish Mackie-Smith: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... you could run into some challenges and problems potentially in, in, in engaging with your insurance company.
Trish Mackie-Smith: Exactly, yes.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah.
Trish Mackie-Smith: And what was the other question?
Jennifer Harrison: And what's the best way for people to find out more about inndox and also to connect with you personally?
Trish Mackie-Smith: Oh, yes. Just go to our website, uh, indox.com so you have an understanding of what we're about, and contact me on LinkedIn or trish@email.com. Would love to hear from you.
Jennifer Harrison: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Well, look, that has been a fantastic proptech panel. Thank you so much to Robert Khouri, Trish Mackie-Smith, and Mickael Roger for joining. Uh, the Proptech Awards are open for entries until Tuesday the 9th of May. That is the deadline, and you must be a member or associate of the Proptech Association Australia in order to enter. The gala dinner is on July the 19th at the Fullerton Hotel in Martin Place. Ticketing information will be available, um, via all of our normal communication channels. If you don't already, please follow Proptech Association on LinkedIn. Please also subscribe to the newsletter, and you can check out on our website, www.proptechassociation.com.au, all the information you need about the awards and also all the information about becoming a member or associate. Thank you so much again to my guests for today. Thank you to you for viewing and joining us live, and I look forward to hosting another proptech panel next month.
