Proptech panel: The use cases for VR in real estate
The virtual reality headset was invented in 1968 and the technology got a major boost when Facebook bought Oculus in 2014 – so why has it taken real estate so long to embrace it?
In the first Proptech Association Australia panel for 2024, host Kylie Davis brought together Josh Callaghan of Little Hinges, Michael Shaw of EnvisionVR (now Enviz) and Christian Schwerdtfeger of IMMERSIV to examine how virtual, augmented and extended reality, along with real-time digital twins, are moving beyond gimmick to solve practical problems in residential and commercial property.
The panel found that property managers have adopted virtual tours faster than sales agents, using them as cost-effective listing assets and for condition reports. The discussion also covered how mobile VR removes the need for headsets, how digital twins let buyers and developers change designs before a brick is laid, and how shadow and massing studies could take the heat out of council objections.
On the panel:
Kylie Davis – Proptech Association Australia (host)
Josh Callaghan – CEO, Little Hinges
Michael Shaw – Founder, EnvisionVR (now Enviz)
Christian Schwerdtfeger – Co-founder, IMMERSIV
The conversation covered:
(00:06) Welcome to the Proptech Association's first panel for 2024, exploring VR, AR, MR, and digital twins in property.
(02:49) Josh Callaghan defines what VR looks like in real estate—moving beyond traditional 3D renders to level up marketing.
(03:42) Tackling the biggest misconception: no, buyers don't need fancy headsets; mobile and desktop make it completely accessible.
(05:12) Michael Shaw explains how 6 Degrees of Freedom tracking killed the old-school VR nausea and lag effects.
(06:20) Josh outlines what Little Hinges does—covering attraction, engagement, and conversion for residential listings.
(11:16) Why the 2020 property boom actually slowed virtual tour adoption, and how the last 12 months sparked real growth.
(13:05) A surprising discovery: property managers are adopting virtual tours faster than sales agents for condition reports and cost-effective assets.
(16:54) Michael Shaw dives into EnvisionVR and how his construction background revealed the core problem of unbuilt space visualisation.
(21:11) Demystifying the alphabet soup of XR, VR, AR, and MR, and why EnvisionVR is rebranding to embrace extended reality.
(25:59) Christian Schwerdtfeger on how IMMERSIV pivoted from a 3D render studio into real-time digital twins.
(29:54) How digital twins allow developers and buyers to make custom design changes before a single brick is laid.
(33:38) Christian discusses why younger demographics embrace headsets while older buyers prefer traditional showroom walkthroughs.
(37:12) The tech stack behind high-end digital twins: high-powered GPUs, Unreal Engine, and cloud pixel streaming.
(41:10) Josh drops a hint about the future: intersecting VR with retail so buyers can drag, drop, and purchase furniture that actually fits.
(42:41) Using digital twins to solve the classic NIMBY council battle by showing real-time shadow casting and massing.
(49:16) Josh reveals how Little Hinges integrates with SellSmart to turn virtual tours into instant trade quotes and renovations paid at settlement.
(53:23) Piloting real-time energy consumption tracking with Monash University to show six-star home energy performance on listings.
In their words:
“The thing that I've noticed, because our point of difference with our company is we actually provide mobile virtual reality, which actually takes into account a technology called 6 Degrees of Freedom, which tracks your movement in all locations.” – Michael Shaw
“Property management have actually gripped it way faster than sales have. That definitely took us by surprise. And I think the reason for that is that it's a very cost-effective way of producing a high quality listing asset without the need for a professional photographer.” – Josh Callaghan
“The old saying, 'Build it and they will come,' certainly doesn't exist in proptech. We've really had to listen to our clients and work with our developers.” – Christian Schwerdtfeger
About the panel:
Josh Callaghan is CEO of Little Hinges, Australia’s leading supplier of digital assets for residential real estate. Michael Shaw is founder of EnvisionVR, drawing on a background in construction and property development to build mobile VR and XR platforms for unbuilt spaces. Christian Schwerdtfeger is co-founder of IMMERSIV, a 3D visualisation expert specialising in real-time digital twins for project marketing.
Transcript:
This is an automated transcript of the panel, lightly edited for readability. Please excuse any errors.
Kylie Davis: Welcome everybody to the Proptech Association's first panel for 2024. My name is Kylie Davis, and I'm the founder and president of the Proptech Association, and it's great to see everyone here for our first proptech panel. I'd also like to introduce, uh, KC Rodriguez, who is the new member specialist, um, s- a member services specialist at the Proptech Association, working full time. So welcome, KC, to, uh, to the Proptech Association. Um-
Josh Callaghan: Thank you. Thank you, Kylie.
Kylie Davis: No worries. So look, I am here today on Wangal land, home of the Bennelong, of Bennelong's mob, uh, the Wangal people of the Eora nation, in the inner west of Sydney. And in the spirit of reconciliation, the Proptech Association of Australia acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea, and community. We pay our respect to elders past and present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders who, um, are joining us today. I'd also like to thank, uh, the fabulous support of Stone&Chalk, who make our proptech panels possible. And for those of you who don't know, Stone&Chalk was founded as a not-for-profit in Sydney in 2015 to help fintech startups commercialize and grow. And from the 40 startups in 2015, it now has hundreds of startups across Melbourne, Sydney, and Adelaide, covering all areas of emerging technology, including proptech. So let's begin with our conversation around virtual reality. The first virtual reality headset was invented in 1968, and the technology got a huge bump in 2014 when Facebook bought Oculus for an eye-watering price. So why has it taken so long for real estate and property to embrace it? And how is it being used successfully? In this panel, we're gonna be learning about VR, AR, MR, XR, digital twins, and everything in between. And my panel of experts to help us understand this space is Josh Callaghan from Little Hinges. Hello, Josh.
Josh Callaghan: Hey, Kylie. Hey, everyone.
Kylie Davis: Uh, uh, Christian Schwertfeger from Immersyve. Hey, Christian.
Michael Shaw: Good morning.
Kylie Davis: L- love to have you here. And Michael Shaw from EnvisionVR. Hi, Michael.
Michael Shaw: Yeah. Hi, Kylie, and hi, everyone else on the panel.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Michael Shaw: Good to be here.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. Uh, so welcome, gentlemen. Uh, I'm gonna kick off with some general questions, uh, for you all, and I'm just gonna pop them up ahead, so apologies if I start to look up. But who wants to answer the question of what is VR?
Josh Callaghan: I'll, I'll give it a crack. So in real estate specifically, we're talking proptech, um, VR can be in many forms. Like, we have clients come to us, um, really with the goal of just leveling up, uh, their marketing game and, you know, going beyond traditional when we're talking off the plan, going beyond 3D renders and animation. And they've seen these emerging technologies, they've heard about VR and the metaverse and all these buzzwords. Um, but basically they'll come to us and say, "Look, we want to, um, you know, level up, and we want to do, do some kind of VR," um, and that's how the conversation usually starts, uh, for us.
Kylie Davis: Okay. So what are the misconceptions around VR? Like, do I need a crazy headset to use it? Like, is it, uh, how mainstream is it now? 'Cause it sort of started off as a bit of a gimmick or a gamer thing or a toy. How, um, yeah, how, how-
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, I think-
Kylie Davis: How mainstream?
Josh Callaghan: I think that's the biggest misconception is that you do need some sort of personal tech or some, something that you don't already have in your hands to be able to access it. And these days, uh, you know, VR and, and AR, so augmented reality, augmenting the, the world and space around you, is really all super accessible through mobile phone tech, through desktop, um, and al- yeah, any other device that you're using. So it's actually really accessible, and really all it's talking about, or, or largely in the property space, it's just connecting those dots between, um, instead of having to travel somewhere or have to provide access or gain access to a property, ultimately it puts all that, uh, in the technology that you're already using.
Kylie Davis: Fantastic. And so I have spent, uh, eight... well, yeah, 18 months of my life pregnant, and I've spent, was nauseous the entire time, and my experiences with, with very early VR and gaming and stuff like that, which have made me want to, um, you know, vomit. So is that still gonna happen? Like, what... how, how has the technology advanced?
Michael Shaw: Uh, the, the thing that I've noticed, 'cause we obviously, our point of difference with our company is we actually provide mobile virtual reality, which actually takes into account, uh, a technology called 6 Degrees of Freedom, which tracks your movement in all, in all locations. And what you're talking about in terms of the previous people getting nauseous is because the technology in the past, the tracking of your movement wasn't at the same as your eyes were tracking-
Kylie Davis: Oh
Michael Shaw: ... so you would get that lag effect.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Michael Shaw: But what, what has happened in recent, uh, in recent years is that the billions of dollars that Meta and Apple and Google have been investing in this hardware, that, that, that experience is just so much better. And so we now, uh, we have people trying virtual reality every day, and that's now not a, not an issue because of that tracking of that movement has become so much better. So, uh, yeah, it's definitely something that people still need to experience to get over, but, uh, yeah, it's not an issue anymore.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. I think, and I think you raise a great point there, Michael, that, you know, Meta and, um, Google are investing, you know, absolutely millions and millions and millions of dollars in this, in this technology. So let's maybe dive into, like, the real estate cases for it, because it really heavily invested technology, huge improvements in the space. Um, some of the-... objections to using it now starting to, to dissolve. Josh, let's start with you and kind of the residential real estate, uh, area. What does Little Hinges do, and, and how long have you been doing that for? How- what's your s- what's your USP in, in VR?
Josh Callaghan: Uh, yeah. So we've been, uh, we've been going on almost, uh, four years now, it'll be four years in April. Um, we're Australia's leading supplier of the digital assets for listings for resi real estate agents, um, in order to be able to attract, engage and convert their audience. So on the attraction, that's all, you know, professional photography, 2D floor plan, drones, and, and all of the photo editing that you expect. The engagement is really where the VR comes in, and, um, and in particular for us, it's in virtual tours. And so, so that's about engaging the audience. And then our platform is what converts the audience. So it allows the f- your full agency ecosystem be- to be connected into that highly engaged user. Uh, and that's how we make sure, I guess, one of the challenges has been utility of virtual tours. It can't just be, you know, or, or VR or any of this stuff, it can't just be for the sake of the tech.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Josh Callaghan: It has to actually serve a purpose and have a really meaningful impact commercially, um, for organizations. And so we've spent a lot of time, um, making those, the, you know, making sure that the, um, value of virtual tours is, is fully connected in that real estate agent's ecosystem.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. And so what does it, when is it being most in- you know, effective, or when are people really wanting to do a virtual tour? Is it at the start of the journey? Is it halfway through? What's the, what's the indicator?
Josh Callaghan: Yeah. Yeah. It's typically, um, it's... W- what we, what we generally find is that we'll see about, um, we'll, we'll see generally somewhere between sort of 20 to 30% of the audience that clicks through a carousel on realestate.com go into the actual v- virtual tour. Um, the reason being is that it's, it is something that you have, the user has to push into, and it is active. It's not like a video watch, which is passive or, or flicking through photos, which is, um, somewhat stimulating. Um, you actually have to, you know, you have to put your effort into walking around and wanting to inspect it. So you only see highly engaged buyers that are using it, or highly engaged renters. People who are actually interested in measuring up, spending time, understanding whether the space is actually right for them. So, so it actually sits, it w- it, for, you know, our experience, um, says that it sits right before the conversion. So, so people who are highly engaged in the virtual tour, um, are also those people who are most likely, um, to, uh, put, put an inquiry through to the agent to make an offer or, or put an application in or, or, like, take that next step.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Josh Callaghan: 'Cause it is quite involved.
Kylie Davis: So, a q- so if I'm looking at a... You know, we know that a picture can tell us thou- a thousand words, but also a thousand lies-
Josh Callaghan: Yeah
Kylie Davis: ... especially in real estate, like with fisheye lenses making rooms look bigger and things like that.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Is that how people are using it to actually get a sense of proportion of the place that they're, that they're looking at?
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, I think so. There is, um, uh... Yeah. I mean, what we see is, so we, we analyze where pe- p- one of their analytics looks at where people are actually walking through the property.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Josh Callaghan: And what we see is that it lines up very closely with what agents tell us anecdotally of where, you know, when they, when they open up the open home and people walk through, of exactly where they, people spend the time and where they, you know, um, where they don't spend the time. And so we see that basically mimicked, um, like for like in the virtual tour. So they, they tend to walk around and pay more attention to the, um, in the kitchen, and they're doing things like pulling out the measuring tape to have a look at how big the bench spaces are. They're looking at fridge spaces. They're, um, seeing whether there's a dishwasher, that sort of stuff. Whereas bedroom number three, which is a, you know, three meter by three meter box with a built-in wardrobe, they're not spending any time in. Um-
Kylie Davis: Yeah. Sticking their head in and then out-
Josh Callaghan: They're stick-
Kylie Davis: And go
Josh Callaghan: Exactly.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Josh Callaghan: That's right, yeah. And so it does allow for that. Uh, that's why we're specific about those three elements, which is, um, attraction, engagement and conversion. Because it, 'cause it is right to make the house look pretty to attract the most amount of buyers. Like, you should probably use great lenses, really good angles, and, and spend some time editing it to attract them, but it's real- you know, the qualification of that, of that audience and, and buyers that are actually interested, um, need to be able to have that digital access to the property.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. And so you saw a big spike during COVID because obviously people couldn't do inspections. How has it, um, what's happened post-COVID? Like, uh, has everyone just gone back to, "Oh, we'll just go back to open homes," or is it sticking around?
Josh Callaghan: Yeah. We've had, um... So you would think there would be a big spike in COVID. Um-
Kylie Davis: Ah
Josh Callaghan: ... we, um, y- C- C- COVID, COVID definitely spiked the awareness of virt- like, like, virtual tour's been around for a long time, and, uh, people have been talking about it a lot. Um, CO- COVID definitely meant that our job was a lot easier talking to people about virtual tours. But as far as adoption goes, as you might remember, COVID coincided with an enormous property boom and a, and a, and a literal, you know, wave, like, like unstopping wave of buyers.
Kylie Davis: Mm.
Josh Callaghan: And we went through that period where all you really needed was an address to sell a house.
Kylie Davis: Oh, okay.
Josh Callaghan: Um, you know, everything was going so quickly. And so when it came to, to actually having to curate a digital audience down a funnel towards conversion, um, it just wasn't, it just didn't actually serve a purpose for a few-
Kylie Davis: Market was too hot.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah. Market was too hot. And so, and, and so as a result, um, it didn't, you know, create that immediate adoption. We've found though that, um, probably in the last 12 months in particular, um, the, uh, just through the, the ongoing grind and, and I guess, you know, educating the, the agents and, and connecting in with their systems deeper and deeper, um, we've been, you know, we've had quite strong, we've had a lot stronger growth in the last, say, year and a half than we did in the first year and a half.
Kylie Davis: Okay. Fantastic.
Josh Callaghan: Mm.
Kylie Davis: So now you're using Matterport as your-
Josh Callaghan: Yep
Kylie Davis: ... yeah, it's 'cause you guys don't create the tech. You, you're, but you're in, in- Just talk us through how that works with the images
Josh Callaghan: Yeah. Yeah, so we've got, um, we, we do a full, um, sort of one-stop shop. So we've actually employed the technicians that come out on site, um, to do the capture. They do the entire capture using Matterport, simply 'cause Matterport's the best technology out there right now to create, um, 3D virtual tours of the built world. Um, it creates a much more immersive experience and then, and allows for that engagement of the user, which is critical to conversion, um, and helping them through the property. At some stage in the future, maybe that's something different. We're not, we're not, um, tied into it. Our, our technology stack and the rest of our environment is agnostic to what the piece of content is. Um, but right now, yeah, Matterport's the best, and so that's, that's why we use it. Um, we're actually their, uh, we're their largest client, um, in Australasia, and, and one of the largest, I think in the top two in the world, um, in terms of the number of scans that we produce every, every month.
Kylie Davis: Okay. Fantastic. And so what are the top three things that your clients are doing that is making VR really successful for them?
Josh Callaghan: Um, I, I think we- one of the things that took us by surprise was that, um, property management, um, have actually gripped it way faster than sales have. Um, that, that definitely took us by surprise.
Kylie Davis: Go property management girls.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Yay.
Josh Callaghan: That's right. Yeah, legends. And so I think the reason for that is that, um, it's a, we can create a very cost-effective way of producing a high quality, um, you know, listing assets-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Josh Callaghan: ... um, without the need for a professional photographer for, for those particular applications. We do have professional photographers as well, but, but, you know, for a couple of hundred dollars we can be out on site, do a full virtual tour, and extract images from there, and create the floor plan. And so you get this, this very cost-effective and, and high quality, um, product to be able to take to market, which is, which was new and unique, and still is unique in, in that market. Um, the other thing that property management love is having a, a dated and timed, um, entry, like, condition, uh-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Josh Callaghan: ... uh, sort of view. So they can go back and, um, it's already held up in VCAT and QCAT. Um, I'm not familiar. I, you know, we only hear it through anecdotes, so I'm not familiar with, um, any particular cases in other jurisdictions. But, you know, it talks to the fact that, um, I guess one of the big risks is when you get to that claim time, what happens, um, and, and what you can rely on, uh, in t- in terms of some of the written inspection reports and stuff. Um, on the sales though, where we've, um, where we've found, uh, it is starting to get some good momentum is actually in, um, being able to drop in, like, expression of interest forms, that sort of stuff, directly to the user, so that it just connects immediately, um, with, you know, someone who's spending a fair bit of time in that virtual tour and walking around. They've got that really logical next step for them. Um, and so that's starting to, um, provide some value to, to our sales agents as well, those, those of which who are using it at least. Um, so yeah, so they're probably the, the big things that we see.
Kylie Davis: Okay. And so what do you think is the future of VR in residential property? Where do you see it going?
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, I think, um, I think, you know, some people would, would say that it's all you need. You know, we've definitely got, um, uh, some people in the space that suggest that, you know, you can throw away the rest of the stuff. It's just, you know, make the property available digitally and, and that's the end of the game. And I, I don't think that's right. I think, you know, there is still the element of having to attract the audience, and that, and marketing is marketing. And so there's a, there's a whole lot of component pieces there. I think, um, I think the future though is actually deepening, um, a lot of the data and the, and the audience value that comes out of virtual tours.
Kylie Davis: Mm.
Josh Callaghan: Deepening that in terms of having two-way conversations whilst people are in tour, being able to guide people through a tour and do... You know, there's so much value that the agents and property managers create, um, by helping a, a buyer, um, or a, or a renter understand the property, understand the area, you know, create value there. And so I think, you know, the, the short to medium future is, I think we'll see a lot more, um, a lot more tech come into the space that allows the agent to play their primary part, which is so critical in, in all of these sort of transactions.
Kylie Davis: Fantastic. Um, Michael, let's move to you next. But I'm just gonna ask a question to make sure. Uh, i- is my background, 'cause I'm not in usual back- Is it reversed still? Because it looks reversed for me, and I'm not...
Michael Shaw: It looks fine. No.
Kylie Davis: Okay, good.
Michael Shaw: It's, it's fine. Yeah.
Kylie Davis: All right. I just wanna make sure we're not recording this and I'm looking like a, a, a, a goofball for the-... for the entire recording. If, um, if that's the case. Now I just look like it for two seconds while I ask the question. Um, so look, Michael, EnvisionVR, um, your background's in construction, so I really wanna kind of unpack this a little bit. How did you guys, how did you start EnvisionVR, and what sector of the VR, of the VR market are you specializing in?
Michael Shaw: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. As you mentioned, um, my background is in construction, so I, I was working for some large construction companies, but also did a lot of my own property development. So that's why I'm very familiar with the property space, and that's where I first realized the core problem of what we solve is, um, people really struggle to be able to understand a future unbuilt space or, or home. Um, and so that, that's either through the design and construction s- phase or actually through the selling off the plan, um, either-
Kylie Davis: Mm
Michael Shaw: ... through apartments or volume homes. Um, so that was the core problem, that we- people just can't read floor plans or, or they don't know what a space is gonna be like. And, and as soon as I tried my first, um, VR headset, I just, I just knew that this was the answer. Like, it, it just, you can solve all that, that problem of people going, having, having to imagine something. They can actually just see it, and not only see it, but actually experience it and walk around it.
Kylie Davis: Mm.
Michael Shaw: So, um, that's where the core idea started from. But, but since then we've now built a platform that, uh, allows anyone to be able to visualize and experience these future spaces. But we've not only done that, but we've actually opened up that platform for any 3D designer around the world to be able to, to create these spaces. So that's any architect or any CGI studio, um, to- can create these spaces. Um- And so, yeah, so that's, that's what we do in terms of empowering those designers. But then once we've got these spaces, then it allows the property professionals, say, the agents, the builders, and the developers to be able to use those spaces to sell or design their- for their clients.
Kylie Davis: Okay. So just step me through what the sort of workflow or what the flow of it looks like. Um, you- you've, you've built this- you've built sort of workflow software or, or, um, 3D software. So I hire an archit- I, I'm a builder and I hire an architect, and he, he or she draws up the plans and then, and then what happens after that?
Michael Shaw: Yeah. So every architect these days is, is through their design process, they model in 3D.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Michael Shaw: Uh, so that's multiple softwares like SketchUp, Revit, Archicad.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Michael Shaw: Um, and they use these 3D designs, and then they use those 3D models to create their floor plans or some renders. Um, but e- and there is some software that, uh, that you can then, um, view them in, in virtual reality when you're plugged into a computer or if you've got special hardware to access them. But our point of difference is that we make those 3D designs really user-friendly for the general public to be able to, um, experience them. And so we allow those architects to be able to share those designs on your mobile phone, a tablet, on the web, and also on the latest virtual reality headsets. And then it allows the- their clients to then walk around them, but also then meet with their architect or the designer, um, virtually. So similar to what Josh's technology does in terms of the agents showing them around, we allow the designer or that agent to meet that- their client in the space and then either walk through the space to design or walk through the space to sell. Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. So, so just so I'm clear, you, you- the d- the architects or the designers, they're using the software that they would normally use and then you- your software's sort of like a bridge over to how that's then being presented or is it an alternative to design?
Michael Shaw: Yeah, no, no, exactly. Yeah. We, we are not a company that is trying to be a 3D modeling software. So-
Kylie Davis: Right
Michael Shaw: ... there's, there's plenty out there, and Autodesk owns that market and Google with SketchUp and, um... But our, our software, our platform is trying to be 3D software agnostic in terms of-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Michael Shaw: ... we want to be able to ingest any design that is done by any 3D professional around the world-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Michael Shaw: ... and so that they can then have a user-friendly easy way for them to share those experiences with their clients.
Kylie Davis: Okay. And so, so, uh, w- we spoke about, um... When, when we were talking on the Proptech Podcast recently, you were telling me, um, you were telling me about how the different kinds of, of VR, like AR and, um, MR and XR. So for the benefits of the audience, what are those different Rs and, and how, how do they all relate to each other?
Michael Shaw: Yeah. Um, yeah, it's good timing that this question. Um, just by chance, our, our, our current company name is called EnvisionVR, but we're actually doing a bit of a rebranding and actually changing that to Envision XR. Um, and that's because XR stands for extended reality, which covers all the, the forms of- that you just mentioned in terms of VR, AR, and MR. And the reason why we're doing that is because we, we are more than just virtual reality. Our, our platform is across all, all devices in terms of phones, web, and, and VR, and tablets. Um, but the difference is that virtual reality is when you're fully immersed in the virtual world. So you're using generally a virtual headset, virtual reality headset, and you're fully immersed in that digital space, and that can be the- that digital space can be anything from something that doesn't exist, or it can be a recreation of, of the real world, but you're fully immersed in that experience. Um, where augmented reality is actually when there is 3D elements or 3D environment that is overlaid and put inside, uh, inside the real world. So it's more augmenting the real world. Um, so the- therefore our, our experience, the, to show you what that example is, is we have, um, the ability for users to be able to drop their property on their future site and then actually walk around in one-to-one scale, but then actually look out the w- the windows of the virtual home and see what the real view would look like because you can actually see... Using the camera, you can see what the view will look like of, of your future home or apartment. Um, and then mixed reality is kind of a combination of the both. Uh, it's, it's more similar to augmented reality, but it's where the virtual, um, assets and the virtual world, um, actually work with the real world. So they kind of work together, so they're interacting. So when something changes in the, in the real world, the, kind of the virtual world will engage and give you some information and feedback. So it's, it's kind of a combination of the two.
Kylie Davis: Right. Fantastic. Um, and so how is, um, how is the, the business case for, for your clients? Like, how is it different between, uh, how do, how do you pitch sort of architects versus a- and designers versus real estate agents or commercial property owners? How, how are you positioning yourself there?
Michael Shaw: Yeah. So, so we have two main use cases, um, and two main feature sets that we, we offer our, our clients that use our, our virtual experiences. Um, and that's, uh, a, a software called Design With or Sell With. And so generally, the architects of the world, um, are using the Design With functionalities where you can create their spaces which they're designing the homes, and then they can meet inside the space and use measuring tapes and pointers and sticky notes, and they can actually do a design kind of, um- Design process with their clients, but also then share that with their family and friends and, and through that design s- process. But then, then we have the sell with functionality, which is generally used, um, by the agents and the developers of the world that are trying to sell off the plan. And so that's obviously very powerful because the, the home and the space doesn't exist, and they're trying to communicate that. And so this is generally used by different design professionals as well. It's generally used from a CGI studio. And so the quality of those experiences are generally very high quality. Like, they look lifelike. Um, and so b- because they're trying to sell multi-million dollar properties. And so generally those features have to change a little bit again. So that's when the agent wants to be able to guide the person through the experience and, and really take control of it, but also show the different styles and finishes and views. Um, but then finally they also are quite demanding and like similar Josh, what Josh mentioned and they want to know the analytics that come behind that. So we, we track where people go in the space, how long they're in the space, who they're sharing it with. All that data is very critical for, for that selling agent to then make that sale and, and have a competitive advantage over, over everyone else.
Kylie Davis: Fantastic. Now, um, we, we're getting a couple of questions through the chat, and if anyone's got questions, please pop them into chat or into the Q&A and we'll get to them. Um, and I've got a cracking question for the end of this one, which I want you all to think about, which is around buyer demand for this. Like, you know, so end users, not real estate agents and not property owners who are your direct clients, but end users, what's the pressure coming down the pipe for that? But we're gonna move on to you now, Christian, 'cause, um, I... You know, you guys were the winners of the Proptech Awards, um, last year, so congratulations. Tell us a little bit about IMMERSIV. How did you start and get involved in the, in the VR space?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah. So myself and, uh, fellow, um, co-founder Clint Motley, we originally started as a 3D render studio and animation. So we've been, uh... have a lot of experience with developers across house and land, master plans and apartments, um, basically delivering all kinds of solutions, um, for project marketing. But in 2020 there was some really groundbreaking technology that got released and, um, that enabled us to pivot our core service into real time digital twins. So we still offer renders and animation as part of the, the project marketing life cycle. Um, but what the digital twin aspect and bringing that on board really allowed us to do is complete our entire portfolio into a, a complete sales and marketing presentation platform. So it really just provides a whole holistic, um, platform that we have now.
Kylie Davis: Okay. So we hear a lot about digital twins in proptech. Give us an explanation of what they really are and what they can... and what they do.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah. So a digital twin really is just like a virtual replica of a, uh, unbuilt space. So what it basically does is we take digital twins to the next level. So we really provide an experience where buyers can step inside a development, whether that be an apartment or looking around a house and land virtual display village. Um, and it's really valuable for sales agents because they're able to, um, give a profound, uh, communication example to a buyer of what something's going to look like and leave no stone unturned in terms of all the information that's on, on display.
Kylie Davis: Mm.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: So buyers are becoming a lot more savvy these days and, uh, probably thanks to Josh and Little Hinges by providing virtual tours of built spaces. Now that demand's being brought over to unbuilt, where they're wanting to, you know, look around the corner, look around the butler's pantry, and not just see, uh, possibly static 3D render images. So they're wanting to get a lot more information. Uh, they're also doing a lot more research in their own time prior to coming to the showroom. So what our solution offers is really an example for them to get a, a whole lot of information and then come to the showroom fully equipped to really make an informed purchase decision.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. I guess, I mean, look, you know, quoting from that, um, Australian classic, The Castle-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah
Kylie Davis: ... in the unbuilt space it's always been come to the showroom because that's the vibe, but it's not the constitution. Whereas you guys are actually saying, "Look, we can actually walk you through before it's built, the constitut- You can actually see the detail of it," right? And-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: That's, that's right. Yeah. Like, we have to be mindful that, you know, the deals are still done in the showrooms-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Christian Schwerdtfeger: ... so the sales agent's pretty important. So it's really just about equipping them with more tools.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Um, you know, people aren't buying property traditionally of unbuilt over, uh, over the phone or telephone or video conferencing. It does happen a little bit, but really they're still coming into the showroom. So it's about widening that reach by offering a solution online, uh, so they can come into the showroom and then get walked through with a sales agent.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. And look, I imagine that one of the really big benefits of it is the ability to... O- I guess it gives the buyer a lot of confidence about what they're actually getting, right? So they know that, you know, it, it doesn't feel as scary going through that whole new home build.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it really, um, really improves the transparency within the industry. Like, um, some builders, um, typically haven't wanted to release a, a lot of information, but what this does is really, uh, if a developer goes out with this sort of strategy, um, they're really saying, "Look, this is what we're offering. Here's all the benefits. Um, here's every way that we're offering." So yeah, the buyer feels a lot more comfortable.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. And, and look, clicks are easier to move than bricks, right? Um, so looking at things in the early design stage or seeing what the property looks like and then deciding, actually, no, I don't want that version of the kitchen, I want the, you know, the, the upgrade or whatever, and being able to s- actually see and make those decisions. How... Have you got any evidence that, uh, that talks, that talks through or, or user cases that you can talk through in that space?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Uh, yeah, sure. So, like, if you look for an apartment example, um, you know, if you have a digital twin, an apartment, they can walk through it in an unbuilt, uh, sense. A buyer can, you know, swap a color scheme for a kitchen. They can even say, "Okay, I don't like that wall being there. Let's make a design fly now before, uh, we actually get to build." And a lot of developers are, are comfortable with that and they'll actually make, you know, physical design changes based on being able to walk through and understand the space and, and give a accurate depiction of what a buyer actually wants. So we're seeing a lot of developers now actually being quite custom- Uh, and not just offering set floor plans. They're being quite flexible with buyers as well.
Kylie Davis: Hmm. Look, uh, th- and this, this is a complete question without notice, Christian, so sorry for springing it on you. But have you... A- and it might be too early, but have you got any evidence... Because we know in new builds there's a big issue with make goods. So, like, the property's built, and then something hasn't turned out right, and so the builder has to come back and fix things.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Mm.
Kylie Davis: Are we seeing any reduction where VR or, you know, has been used in, in that, or is it too early yet?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Um, no. I've got one example where I can share from that. So we did a project called, um, The Lanes down in Mermaid Beach-
Kylie Davis: Mm
Christian Schwerdtfeger: ... and it's a 50 hectare retail, uh, site. And this is between the developer and, and our design team, but basically we presented the first iteration of the digital twin, um, which showing 52 retail, uh, tenancies. Um, and, you, you know, he's ultra impressive being able to look around. But what he did notice is that his vision that he had in his head, um, was not aligned to how it actually looks. So he made a, a large design change of his own where he, uh, rendered, I think, 35% of the, the built form on the exterior, um, to match really what his expectations were for, for when it would be built.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. Yep. Um, I guess c- 'cause, you know, we're talking about millions and millions and millions of dollars here in these buildings, and if you wake up to go and inspect it after it's built and go, "Oh, actually, it doesn't look anything like what I thought it would be," can be kind of an issue. So, so what are the biggest benefits that are convincing your clients to jump on board, and what are, what, and what are the blockers?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Um, so definitely the interactivity. So buyers, as I mentioned before, they're expecting a lot more now and, you know, sales teams have really had to adapt to these consumer demands. So being fully, uh, interactive, it just, you know, gives the sales agents a lot more tools to be able to stand out from the competition. Um, and because we offer a showroom solution, which is, um, the ability for, you know, myself as a buyer, for example, and a sales agent to literally walk through everywhere, um, that's been a big benefit for them. And then online as well, so garnering that reach to an interstate or a global audience, uh, to get more eyeballs on the, on the project's been, uh, very pivotal as well.
Kylie Davis: So just so I understand that correctly, I, I can go into the showroom and I am sitting down with a sales agent and going through it with, with him or her together?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: That's right, yeah.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: It'd typically be on a showroom, uh, on a wall-mounted TV or, like, a touchscreen-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Christian Schwerdtfeger: ... and they'll walk you through. You can put on a VR headset as well. Um, it's just up to the client. It's an add-on for us. It's not our core product.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Um, we prefer to offer the solution with a sales agent to have that one, uh, one-on-one direction and eye contact and, you know, converse. Sometimes when you put a headset on, um, you can essentially feel a little bit blindfolded. Uh, even though it is quite immersive, um, we still feel the best way is to, you know, direct contact with the sales agent to converse and, and make changes on the fly.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. And do you find that the willingness to embrace the headset is age or demographic, well, like, especially age-related?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Absolutely. Yeah. So the younger demographic are more willing to put it on.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Um, more consumer level. But the older demographic, they, uh, you know, they're used to buying property in a, in a way, like brochures and-
Kylie Davis: Old school. Yeah
Christian Schwerdtfeger: ... yeah. But, you know, some of the blockers really is being from the developer and sales team's point of view as being just that reluctance to change. Um, you know, so long they've been inherently using traditional tactics that are being tried and tested. Um, but what we've really seen is a lot of 3D visualization companies prop up in the last few years offering more interactive technology, so that's a good sign for the industry that it's heading, you know, beyond that and we're getting more to an interactive level.
Kylie Davis: I'd be really curious to see if having h- gone into the s- showroom, which is, you know, pretty big buying signal in itself, and then put on the headset and, or, or gone through the virtual thing. I'd be really interested to see whether the people who enjoy that experience then go online and share that virtual experience-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Mm
Kylie Davis: ... with friends and family, or to see whether, what the correlation was like there with the buying signal or, like, with, with conversion.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah. I mean, um, from that standpoint, we don't have a lot of data, uh, based on that, 'cause once we hand over the tech-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Christian Schwerdtfeger: ... um, the sales agents really, really drive it from there. But yeah, it's an interesting point.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay.
Josh Callaghan: Kylie, we do a few, uh, we do a few jobs with, um, stockies on their, um, as they're building. And, um, and so what it does is, like, a progress report, I guess. So we go and scan-
Kylie Davis: Mm-hmm
Josh Callaghan: ... it when it's, like, just frame and then next stage, next stage. Uh, and we did, we did find, um, or we do find that, uh, what'll happen is the person buying might be here or located in, in Australia. Um, but as they're receiving those, they're then sending it out to friends and family all over the world, and we get little, like, pings in from, you know, family that's over in the UK or, or India or, or wherever it happens to be, um, as they're sharing. 'Cause, you know, it's a big exciting time for them, right? Building a house. Um, it's their personal thing, and so it's, it's a way of, of them sharing and engaging their broader family instead of just-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Josh Callaghan: ... you know, all the... I don't know if you've had friends build property or, or family, but they do the drive-by, like, iPhone photo, and you get these, like, sketchy iPhone photos. It's such a more meaningful way of engaging-
Kylie Davis: Yeah
Josh Callaghan: ... um, you know, their family and friends.
Kylie Davis: I, I love that because we hear everyone wants buying or building or renovating a property to be an exciting experience. I mean, where else are you gonna spend so much money?
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, that's right.
Kylie Davis: Like, in your whole life.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Like, you want that to be fun, right?
Josh Callaghan: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Like, it should not... It should be retail therapy on absolute speed. But-
Josh Callaghan: Yeah
Kylie Davis: ... um, but it's so often not, and it's so often the source of, you know, the biggest, you know, arguments with, between spouses, anxiety, tension, and stress.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, that's right.
Kylie Davis: So I love this idea that, that we're, that there are tools out there now that are turning-... moments that have been, that can be quite stressful or anxiety-making into moments of, of shared joy, right?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Mm.
Kylie Davis: Because, because we do wanna love our homes. We know-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah
Kylie Davis: ... we, we know that from, from, um, COVID. Christian, just to go back to you. Um, what do you... What, what have been the biggest advancements that have... I've got two questions for you. What have been the biggest advancements that have been impacting the work that you guys are doing? And are you handing off your digital twin host so that it can be part of the ongoing sort of maintenance and management of the building? So how does that work?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Um, so going very techy now. So the biggest advancements we've seen are in the high-powered GPUs, and that's really been instrumental in being able to create, um, a premium solution that mimics a build well. So, um, you know, not all digital twins are created equal, so we sit at the really top end of the market. Um, so using programs like Unreal Engine, um, they're the world's most premium, uh, game engine, where we can really build these immersive experiences out. Uh, that's been really pivotal. Uh, and also the cloud computing, um, in terms of pixel streaming. Pixel streaming is the ability to host these really high fidelity models in the cloud so people can actually engage with them, um, interactively on their own. Um, they obviously have to be, uh, designed really well, um, and intuitive for the user, uh, to use. Um, but they... That's been the biggest sort of advancements in terms of technology.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. And so, so going back to that other question around the digital twin and its potential post-build to support the ongoing maintenance and mani- uh, you know, asset management and, and later on potentially renovations or things, how, how does that play out with you guys?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Um, yeah, so d- definitely for build to rent, that's a huge proponent. So-
Kylie Davis: Mm
Christian Schwerdtfeger: ... uh, heavily in build to rent. So, but typically off the plan, the builder will, you know, design their, their offering, and then they'll sell it out, and then the digital twin will really stay in there for their marketing material to say, "This is what we've done in the past," and they can build a library of, um, of projects. But when I'm talking about build to rent, um, they're perpetual. So they're obviously built, they're selling off the plan there, but they're actually leasing them out. So when a new, uh, rental is available, they can just revert back to the digital twin and say, "We have a live inventory on our own where we can show what's available and what's not." So if you're a rental tenant looking to buy into a new build to rent development, you know, two years post-development, uh, you can log on, see what's available, and then just make an inquiry, uh, simply like that. And it's not something that can be done with drone photography. Even once it's built, people often ask, "Well, why can't we just use real live photos and, um, and video?" Which you still can, but you can only interact with a 3D model in a 360 space a- and zoom around it and interact if it, if it's in a 3D environment.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. So, so h- uh, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned in, in selling VR tech, um, since starting Immersy?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Um, really I would say, you know, the old saying, "Build it and they will come," certainly doesn't exist in proptech.
Kylie Davis: No.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: We've really, we've really had to, you know, listen to our clients and, uh, work with our developers. We did a lot of buyer surveys to really find out what people actually want and need, um, and developed a project, uh, and a platform around that. Um, and also working with the technology and, uh, you know, not against it.
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. Um, so look, so I'm gonna wrap, uh... We're gonna... Let's op- open this up to a more general discussion, 'cause I love where this is, this is going. Um, what, what are some of the user cases that you think that we should be solving through VR that, that maybe we're not yet, or that are coming up next?
Michael Shaw: Mm.
Kylie Davis: Oh, that's got everyone stumped.
Michael Shaw: I mean, I th- I think something that is happening already, but it's definitely gonna be probably one of the biggest growth sectors in virtual reality is education.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Michael Shaw: I, I think, I think the, the ability for people to be able to, um, like, just imagine a, the future classroom where instead of learning about space or ancient history or things where you can actually have the whole classroom in the space and, and having a teacher talk you through what the pyramids used to look like or what this satellite is doing and stuff, that I think is definitely gonna be a growth, growth sector, um, and it's gonna be more and more used in, in, in schools and classrooms. So I definitely think that's gonna be one of the biggest sectors.
Kylie Davis: And what about it-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: In the built in-
Kylie Davis: Sorry.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Sorry.
Kylie Davis: You go, Josh.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: I was gonna say in the built environment, I think, um, uh, one of the big future growth sectors will actually be, um, the intersection with retail. So, you know, we know that so much retail is done online, and the big conversion point problem that exists right now is that I need to go to the showroom, or I need to, like, get a measuring tape out and measure up to work out whether the couch fits or this fits or that fits. And so, you know, when you've got a 3D... When you've got a fully immersive 3D schematic of the property, there's no reason you can't drag and drop things into, um, into your property and be able to buy it directly knowing that it fits, knowing that it suits-
Kylie Davis: Ooh
Christian Schwerdtfeger: ... and all that sort of stuff. So, um-
Kylie Davis: Oh.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: So I think... Yeah. Dangerous.
Michael Shaw: Yeah. Um, just to say that we're actually, um, launching that feature in about six months, so-
Kylie Davis: Ah, well, there you go
Michael Shaw: ... I, I, I agree with you on that one, Josh.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Shaw: So yeah.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah. Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Oh.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: I, I'll also say, Kylie, that, um, you know, we sit at the sales and marketing when the project's ready to be launched, uh, part of the funnel, but a lot of our inquiries are starting to come through from an early, uh, stakeholder engagement point of view. So, um, to assist with development applications for, um, councils and, and planners to be able to actually envisage at a very basic schematic level before we put all the bells and whistles onto it, um, to be able to provide a, an experience where they can take it to council, associate it with their DA and say, "This is what we're proposing. This is how it fits into the landscape. This is all the surrounding infrastructure we bring in as well." Um, so that's been something that's been bubbling away and, and a product we'll probably expand into in the future.
Kylie Davis: I, I love that idea because, I mean, that solves- The NIMBY issue, right? Because most-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah
Kylie Davis: ... most NIMBY concerns are, I don't under- really understand the plans that you're showing me, but my fears are. And there's no way of, um, consoling people's fears, because they have t- it, you're requiring their imagination to build-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Right
Kylie Davis: ... the picture of what they're reading on the plans. I love that. Um-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: We are touching on a, on a re- on a project we're working on now. It's actually in, uh, Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. It's, um, a development pipeline of 15 towers across two cities and, um-
Kylie Davis: Oh
Christian Schwerdtfeger: ... the client is wanting to look at... Because obviously Riyadh's exploding with development, and they're wanting to actually see how, uh... 'Cause we do a, a real-life time of day, um, representation, so they wanted to see how, um, the shadows will cast across other areas of the area, um, interactively.
Kylie Davis: Oh, look, we could have rebuilt the Gold Coast if we'd...
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah. That's-
Kylie Davis: We can digitally twin the Gold Coast and r- and con- sh- work out where all the shadows are on the beach.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Um, and I love this idea too of the, of the retail coming into it. And, you know, be still my beating Amex card, right? Because we know that what happens when people are building or buying a new home, and they've got an awful lot of... You know, they've, they've, they've got their mortgage organized. That's when people are most likely to, you know, buy cars, um, furniture-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Mm-hmm
Kylie Davis: ... a whole, you know, because they're basically cashed up to do that. But being able to drag and drop it is a phenomenal idea.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Mm.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Michael Shaw: Yep. Yeah, we, you know, we're very excited about, like, uh, as, as you kinda mentioned, that's at the point where they're in that kind of purchasing stage, but they're also got a new space that they're trying to fill, and they, they don't know the dimensions, they don't know what that looks like and stuff. So yeah, that's... We already have the ability to drop furniture and move it around, but the, when we unlock it, it's gonna be in your new home. So you'll be able to actually design your new home and walk around it and see the perspective. But then link that to, like you just said, the catalog. So the IKEAs of the world, the, um, a fantastic-
Kylie Davis: Nick Scali, the King Furnitures-
Michael Shaw: Yeah
Kylie Davis: ... the... Yeah, yeah, lovely. Lovely. I'm loving it. Don't tell my husband. Um, the... So how do we convince, how do we convince developers and real estate agents that this is something that is essential in, in, in the buyer journey? Like, h- how, uh, uh-
Christian Schwerdtfeger: I, I can give a couple examples just in terms of awareness. So you know, as I said before, people come and they ask, you know, what... They want some kind of VR. Um, education really is a big piece, so we do that through demonstrations and, and marketing material. But also case studies of, um, previous immersive, uh, projects have been really pivotal. Um, also from our point of view, partnerships have been, uh, extremely beneficial. So we've been, uh, fortunate to work with realestate.com.au to, um, obviously embed our full immersive platform into their, um, pro- project profiles. Um, they invited us to tour, uh, around the country with them last year, so we were able to, um, meet with 600 developers and give them, um, some really solid, uh, foundational awareness, uh, during that tour. Um, and obviously winning the two awards at proptech was, was good as well. Uh, and then, you know, finally differentiation. So showing how we sit really at the premium end, um, of the 3D visualization solution, um, and it representing how much, uh, R&D we put into the project to, to show all the functionality and really, you know, sell those key benefits that we're offering.
Kylie Davis: Michael, what's your... H- how are you gu- how are you converting clients and dealing-
Michael Shaw: Um-
Kylie Davis: ... with objections?
Michael Shaw: Yeah. Well, I, I... W- we are kind of approaching a slightly different angle, I suppose, but we're also trying to cater for the people that, like, our pr- our product is very high in terms of its very, um, lifelike quality. But we also cater for the more people that are just building their own home. So at that point, the budgets aren't, aren't as high as well. So we're- the ability for the uptake of, of virtual reality does come down to money as well. So-
Kylie Davis: Mm
Michael Shaw: ... the headsets and the hardware is getting a lot cheaper. Um, the awareness through, um, Apple entering the market is huge. But then, um, similar to what Christian said, having not just the virtual reality experience, but bringing those experiences into something that is more common, whether, whether it's on a phone using augmented reality, which everyone's comfortable with, but then also on the web, like Christian mentioned as well. Like, our experiences are also on REA. Um, so you get people, you take them through that funnel. Um, so as long as the price point is really low, the experience is amazing, and the, the barrier to entry from what they're already comfortable with is, is taken care of, like, we believe that's, um, uh, that's gonna be a recipe for success.
Kylie Davis: A- and I've just had a, a thought. When we talk about augmented reality, we're talking, we're talking like Pokemon, right?
Michael Shaw: Yeah, Pokemon-
Kylie Davis: Where you walk by...
Michael Shaw: Yeah, Po- Pokemon Go is- is- is the most successful aug- augmented reality, um, experience. Yeah. So that's, that's the most, um-
Kylie Davis: Right. Okay. So I'm holding up my phone and I can see my, my new home sitting on the block exactly where I wanted it located, and it looks gorgeous and, and I go, "Actually, no, I don't want that front door." Yeah.
Michael Shaw: Yep.
Kylie Davis: Change the front door. Okay. Right.
Michael Shaw: Exactly. You described it perfectly.
Kylie Davis: Awesome. Okay. Awesome. Josh, how are you, how are you converting? How are you con- overcoming objections?
Josh Callaghan: Yeah. I mean, Resi Real Estate's, um, a bit different to the space that these guys, um, deal in, obviously. So we've done it probably in a couple of ways. One is repositioning the game that we play. So we were very much a pure play virtual tour, um, you know, house, that, that, that's what we wanted to specialize in. We've now, um, incorporated the full digital asset pack that allows basically, I mean, for a sales agent, for example, anywhere on the, um, around Australia, it's 499 bucks for everything you need to get it on realestate.com. Professional photos, touch-ups, 2D floor plan, full immersive virtual experience. That, that, you know, so all just ready to go upload it, you're done. So, so we've had to change our proposition to meet them where they are- Um, but the other things is with, um, just providing better utility. You know, we've, we've got a, a partnership with a great company called SellSmart. Um, and so they solve a problem of being able to bring stock to market sooner because that's one of the, you know, one of the challenges of agents is I'm talking to a vendor and they're sort of like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'll put it on market but I just wanna get the, you know, wanna get a repaint done and get some new flooring or whatever." Well, well our virtual tour and, and the data that sits off the back of it allows for, you know, all of those, all that quoting to happen instantly, get trades organized, and, and you're done. So it brings, you know, stock to market sooner. And then we can-
Kylie Davis: Oh, hang on. We need to unpack that. Um, what... So, so I'm doing a virtual tour now of my... Or I'm doing a kinda quick f- tour of my home, and that's being used to quote for trades.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, that's right.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Josh Callaghan: Exactly. Through SellSmart, yeah. Yeah, and so which is incredible 'cause they've got this trusted network and really well vetted, trusted network of, of, um, of trades. And they work with their agents, uh, or their agencies I should say, to, to use their trades and stuff as well. But what it means is that at the click of a button, you basically, you've got all the quotes you need. You go, "Cool, that much for flooring, that much for painting, that much for whatever." And, and, and instead of waiting for, you know, the vendor or trying to help them and hold their hand on this whole quoting and execution process, um, you know, you can basically, you can get it done. The best thing is they've, they've partnered with Campaign Agent. The best thing is you finance it all and get it all, get it all, um, bring, take it all to settlement and you're off.
Kylie Davis: Oh, my God.
Josh Callaghan: It's-
Kylie Davis: Ah.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah. It's game changer.
Kylie Davis: Hang on. Stay still, my beating heart. So just to be sure, just to be very, very clear, we are talking about capturing the, the, the s- I guess you're getting the measurements, you're getting the whole kind of-
Josh Callaghan: Yeah
Kylie Davis: ... volume and, and, and, and real insights into what the property looks like.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: And the changes that are being done are real world changes. They're not just virtual changes. You're not just like a virtual coat of paint. It's-
Josh Callaghan: No, that's right
Kylie Davis: ... no.
Josh Callaghan: Real world changes, yeah.
Kylie Davis: M- men will turn up in-
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, that's right
Kylie Davis: ... overalls and-
Josh Callaghan: In overalls and, and-... do their thing.
Kylie Davis: And brushes.
Josh Callaghan: Exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah, exactly.
Kylie Davis: Ooh.
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, yeah. Um, which is a, it's, it's a game changer of a proposition. So, um, so there's that, which it's, you know, just providing value to agents, right? And, and meeting them where they're needed. And for us, that's also about lead generation and, and being out. Like, uh, a lot of our property managers integrate their application forms. You know, just that one step alone that allows me just to qualify that, you know, Christian's been through the tour and he's spent a few minutes and now he's filled in an application just makes the difference in those. Particularly in the markets where, like we, like most of our markets at the moment, we're inundated with applications and not all of them are serious about it.
Kylie Davis: Yeah.
Josh Callaghan: Um, it allows you to qualify very quickly. So yeah, I think for us, we had to change our positioning so that we're playing on the playing fields that they already, you know, that they already use and, and we dominate that space now. But, um, but, you know, it's all about finding these really high utility, high value, um, moments in the, in the agent's, you know, uh, in the agent's world that creates enough value for them to, to, to not be able to work any other way but use it.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. And look, do you know what I have loved about this discussion is that the built environment, construction, building, real estate has, since time immemorial, been a, a data black hole. Uh, i- or that the data has been completely opaque in that not the core logic kind of how much-
Josh Callaghan: Mm
Kylie Davis: ... is that space worth or anything, but how many bricks went into that wall, how long, you know, how long does it take us to build it, how big is that room. All of the really fine detail about the actual asset and the quality of the materials that are going into it and, and, and the appearance and, and its positioning and all of that sort of stuff, that i- it's kind of like the last, one of the last unknowns in-
Josh Callaghan: Mm
Kylie Davis: ... in property. But what you guys are doing is that you're capturing sort of now and next what that built environment is gonna look like, and the data coming off that for the future is going to be quite astonishing. So what we're also seeing around, um, you know, uh, around environmental upgrades and energy efficiency upgrades, with all of these things about our existing properties and being able to visualize what they look like and, and, and sort of insert them artificially or, uh, augment them into existing environments or new environments, we'll be able to start to model out exactly what the performance looks like, right?
Josh Callaghan: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: What the future performance looks like.
Josh Callaghan: That's right. Yeah, we are actually doing a pilot at the moment with the, uh, with Monash University where we're trialing how energy consumption can be, uh, monitored in real time.
Kylie Davis: Wow.
Josh Callaghan: And then looking to bring on that, uh, prop track as well to be able to, you know, present that data. But basically there's been some changes coming out, um, around sustainability and six-star homes of the future. And then when you look on something like realestate.com, you'll be able to actually see, you know, the energy usage of that home that you're buying, whether it be built or unbuilt.
Kylie Davis: Mm. But yeah, and I think probably the next step of that is now that we've bought this house and we're thinking of renovating it, sh- give me a virtual look or let me see what it's going to look like with panels on the front and, um-
Josh Callaghan: Yep
Kylie Davis: ... you know, and the changes out the back to make the airflow better or, and then help me model what I'm actually going to save as opposed to typing it into a little 2D calculator and hoping I've got the numbers right, right?
Josh Callaghan: That's right.
Kylie Davis: 'Cause, 'cause you guys have got 360 days worth of weather -
Josh Callaghan: Mm
Kylie Davis: ... um, for the last five years running through your, through your VR or through your, through your back end.
Josh Callaghan: Mm.
Kylie Davis: Um, look, fellas, it has been an absolutely, um, fabulous discussion. Is there anything, uh, just a little bit around the grounds, is there anything else that you'd just like to add before we finish off? Michael, do you wanna kick off?
Josh Callaghan: Um, yeah. Well, no, thank you for having us. Um, yeah, I'm just really excited to be parting, a part of this conversation. It's been great to talk to everyone. Um, yeah, obviously keep an eye out for our, our launch. We're doing a big launch in March, so that's, um, that's all I can say. Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Awesome. Christian?
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Uh, yeah, no, thank you very much, Kylie, for the invitation. Um, you know, demystifying VR is something that we're, you know, confronted with every day. And, you know, hope this webinar sort of appeased a bit of that, um, confusion in the market. And yeah, thank you.
Kylie Davis: Yeah. I, I, and I love all the projects that you guys are working on across so many different parts of it. It's not just, um, the ability to walk through a home.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Mm, yeah.
Kylie Davis: So Josh, and Josh, what's your last, uh, comment for the-
Josh Callaghan: Yeah, I think, um, yeah, thanks. Thank- definitely thanks for having us and, and thanks for joining us, boys, on, on a great chat. It, um, yeah, I think it's just don't be afraid of it. It's, you know, i- in the same way that you wouldn't have a, you wouldn't be trying to sell stuff in a store without a, an online presence or, or a digital website. Um, you know, interacting with property, um, digitally is, is easy. It's very cost effective these days. Um, and particularly since so much of the industry has already started to mature towards how do we make, um, how do we make your job easier? How do we make leads easier, you know, im- improve your business? It's not just a, a quirky toy, um, that, you know, that nerds, uh, work with. It's actually something that's really meaningful to your business. So if you're not already adopting it or checking it out or using it, just reach out to one of us or someone else you know and, and, um, and get amongst it.
Kylie Davis: I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you so much, Josh. Thanks, Michael. Thanks, Christian.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: No worries.
Kylie Davis: It's been a fantastic conversation and thanks for being on the proptech Panel.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Thank you.
Josh Callaghan: Thanks, Kylie.
Christian Schwerdtfeger: Yeah.
Kylie Davis: Thanks, guys. Thanks everyone who's joined us. Um, we'll see you. We are all now meeting, uh, proptech Panels are scheduled for the last Tuesday of every month. So, um, and we've got some great topics coming up. Uh, they're all going up this month on the s- Proptech Association website. Uh, they're free to join. So, um, so look forward to seeing you at the next one and we will be sharing this video, uh, on the Stone & Chalk YouTube channel and then also with transcripts on the Proptech Association website. So thanks so much everybody. See you next month.
