Proptech panel: Where proptech meets legaltech in conveyancing
Buying or selling a home involves a stack of legal documents, multiple stakeholders and large sums of money changing hands at settlement – which makes conveyancing fertile ground for technology.
In this Proptech Association Australia panel, introduced by Kylie Dillon of Realtime Conveyancer and moderated by association vice president Jennifer Harrison, three leaders from the legaltech side of property – Rukshana Sashankan of PEXA, Judith Hammerschlag of Contrax and Lara Paholski of thelawstore.com.au – examined where proptech and legaltech intersect.
The all-women panel, recorded for International Women's Day, covered the shift from physical settlement rooms to digital settlement, the speed and risk of residential contract reviews, payment redirection scams, and why verified identity is the missing link in digital signing.
On the panel:
Jennifer Harrison – Vice President, Proptech Association Australia (moderator)
Kylie Dillon – Co-founder and CEO, Realtime Conveyancer, and chair of the association's WA and SA committee (introduction)
Rukshana Sashankan – PEXA
Judith Hammerschlag – Co-founder, Contrax
Lara Paholski – CEO, thelawstore.com.au (Live Sign)
The conversation covered:
(00:00) Kylie Dillon opens the panel on proptech and legaltech intersections before handing over to Jennifer Harrison.
(01:20) Jennifer Harrison welcomes the panel and introduces panellists Rukshana, Judith, and Lara.
(03:10) Rukshana Sashankan explains PEXA's role in facilitating digital property settlements across Australia.
(05:01) Stepping back to 2010 to look at the paper-heavy, error-prone physical settlement rooms of the past.
(10:27) PEXA Projects app tackles accuracy, transparency, and pipeline views for property developers.
(12:24) Security measures, ISO compliance, and PEXA Key combatting payment redirection scams.
(16:16) Roadmap highlights include API integrations, mobile signing, and UK expansion with the Bank of England.
(21:26) Judith Hammerschlag introduces Contrax and the high-speed pressure of residential contract reviews.
(24:18) Streamlining contract onboarding, linked clauses, and appendices for compliant contract amendments.
(29:49) How sole practitioners use Contrax as an outsourced legal team to manage risk and capacity.
(35:29) Lara Paholski introduces Live Sign and the missing link in digital signing: verified identity.
(38:15) The Live Sign workflow: extracting passport chip data and biometric facial matching for VOI compliance.
(41:19) Redacting personal identifiable information to protect practitioner liability and data privacy.
(46:17) Rukshana on the human problems and empathy required when tech meets property law.
(51:31) The founders' journey: why qualified lawyers traded traditional practice for legal tech startups.
(55:51) Wrap-up, contact links, and a heads-up on the upcoming 2023 Proptech Awards.
In their words:
“Property is a, I would say in Australia, from what I know, roughly now a $10 trillion asset class. And so therefore, there's zero tolerance for risk.” – Rukshana Sashankan
“Before I talk about the risks of the actual contract, is that in the property market in Australia, especially in the big cities, the speed at which the market moves is just crazy. So you're dealing with big assets, big risks...” – Judith Hammerschlag
“In the move to digital, the whole premise, or of digital signing, the whole premise of the, the core fundamental premise of witnessing actually got somewhat lost along the way.” – Lara Paholski
About the panel:
Rukshana Sashankan is a senior executive at PEXA (Property Exchange Australia) and a former property lawyer.
Judith Hammerschlag is a property lawyer and the co-founder of Contrax, which provides instant contract reviews and online conveyancing.
Lara Paholski is the CEO of thelawstore.com.au, home of the Live Sign digital signing and identity verification solution, and co-founded digital identity business IDSecure.
Jennifer Harrison, vice president of the Proptech Association Australia, moderated the panel, which was introduced by Kylie Dillon, co-founder and CEO of Realtime Conveyancer and chair of the association's WA and SA committee.
Transcript:
This is an automated transcript of the panel, lightly edited for readability. Please excuse any errors.
Kylie Dillon: Hello, and welcome to the proptech panel. I am Kylie Dillon, and I chair the Proptech Association's West Australian and South Australian committee. I'm the founder of Realtime Conveyancer, technology for conveyancers, and for some 30 years now, I've worked in conveyancing. Conveyancing also involves multiple stakeholders, processes and tasks, which means there are plenty of great opportunities in there for technology to help us. And there are always plenty of legal documents required whenever you buy or sell residential property. So the topic of the panel today is definitely one that is really close to my heart. We're talking about the intersections of proptech and LegalTech. Now, here is the Proptech Association's vice president, Jennifer Harrison, who will introduce our guests and take it from there. Over to you, Jen.
Jennifer Harrison: Thank you so much, Kylie. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this month's panel. I'd like to acknowledge before we get started that I am currently on Wallumedegal land in Sydney, and I would like to welcome and pay respects to all First Nations people who might be joining us today, especially elders past, present, and emerging. Every month on the panel, uh, we get three expert guests on to talk about a theme. Today's theme is the intersections of proptech and LegalTech. And I'm very excited to have three amazing women on the panel. We thought for the month of March, with it being International Women's Day, we'd have an all-girl panel, and we're always very excited for that. So I'd like to welcome my three expert guests for today's discussion, starting with Rukshana Sashankan from PEXA. Hello, Rukshana. How are you today?
Rukshana Sashankan: Hi, Jennifer. I'm well today, and I'm joining you from Meanjin land in Brisbane.
Jennifer Harrison: Lovely. Thank you. And my second guest today is Judith Hammerschlag from Contrax. Hello, Judith. How are you today?
Judith Hammerschlag: Hi, Jennifer. I'm good. Thank you for having me on.
Jennifer Harrison: And where are you joining us from?
Judith Hammerschlag: I'm joining, uh, you from Gadigal land at the moment.
Jennifer Harrison: Lovely. And my third guest today, who, uh... You're on mute, Lara. Just letting you know. My third guest today is Lara Paholski from The Law Store.
Lara Paholski: Thank you, Jennifer, very much for having me, and I'm joining you today from Adelaide.
Jennifer Harrison: Oh, wow. Okay. Wonderful.
Lara Paholski: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay, Rukshana, let me start with you first. For people who don't know, could you start off by saying please, what does PEXA stand for? H- what's the name? Sh- is it short for something?
Rukshana Sashankan: Sure is, Jen. It's, PEXA, PEXA stands for Property Exchange Australia.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay, perfect. So that probably leads into the next question. I- choose for people who don't know PEXA, in a nutshell, and I know that's a bit of a tough brief given how, uh, how much breadth and depth PEXA have, but could you try and explain please in a nutshell what does PEXA do?
Rukshana Sashankan: We are... Well, PEXA is a world-first online platform that facilitates the lodgement of registry documents and financial settlement through a secure digital settlements room where the parties to a transaction virtually meet. Um, it's integrated as, as... The platform is integrated with state revenue offices and land registries across the country, which allows the fluid exchange of data and information. And right now, more than 85% of property transactions in Australia are undertaken on PEXA.
Jennifer Harrison: Wonderful. So in terms of that core, like, property settlement platform-
Rukshana Sashankan: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Harrison: ... and that functionality, and that's probably what most people know PEXA for.
Rukshana Sashankan: Sure.
Jennifer Harrison: What, what's the core problem there that you solve for? Can, can you actually maybe take m- maybe this is, is going back. I actually don't know how far back in time we need to go for this. Um, but my very first job, I was a graduate at Westpac, and I had to spend a period of time in a branch.
Rukshana Sashankan: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Harrison: And one day my job was to take a bank check to a settlement. Um, but that's my one and only experience of being in the physical room.
Rukshana Sashankan: Yep.
Jennifer Harrison: But can you share with it, what was it like? When we had to all get into a physical room, what was it like? And then how have you actually harnessed technology as a solution to make that a digital room, and what are the benefits for everyone?
Rukshana Sashankan: Look, I think, um, yeah, um, lots of lovely questions in there. Um, so I'll start with the core problem. And when I think about the core problem for the, for PEXA Exchange, um, it really was about, and still continues to be, solving for inefficiency. Um, and y- you know, s- y- as we'll, and I'm sure we'll talk more about today in our discussion is, is that each property transaction has so many moving parts. And not only do they have moving parts like documents and payments and signing, but also so many participants all dependent on each other to ensure settlement occurs when the buyers and the sellers are expecting it to. So if, if we do go way back, around sort of 2010, 2011, we started replacing that paper process at which, you know, from time to time when you think about it, and it is arguable at times, but it, it was a time-consuming and error-prone process where physical documents, like you said, Jen, you know, y- were wet signed, mailed around, and checks were drawn, and you physically had to go into a, a, a, a physical settlement room, um, and, and exchange documents-
Jennifer Harrison: At the DEx
Rukshana Sashankan: ... with the other side. Yes.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah. At the Document Exchange. Yes.
Rukshana Sashankan: That's right. So we did that, and then we... So what, what PEXA's done in, in a, in terms of- Uh, addressing the inefficiency in that process has streamlined it by enabling parties now to collaborate with each other, lodge documents, exchange funds, and complete those transactions electronically, and essentially addressing those inefficiencies of, um, time, reducing that time and the cost involved, uh, in completing those tr- transactions. And also by doing that, minimizing some of that risk associated with those costs and time delays, um, with errors, delays, and fraud. So that was sort of, I would say, the, the PEXA sort of inefficiency sort of addressing that problem then. But more so now what we're battling with in terms of inefficiency is, um, is around the multiple systems our customers are using to process a property transaction. It's also the dependencies between the participants in a transaction where we are waiting on each other still, even though it's a virtual space, and also the difficulty of settling some of the more complex transaction types which are yet to come into scope. So that's where our focus is at the moment, Jen, in terms of our platform, is to continue to bring those efficiencies to our users.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah. And some of those dependencies, I think anyone who's been through the process will understand. You're right, those dependencies, th- there's a whole cascade and there can be interconditionality. And I do remember I was told I do not let hold of the bank check until the-
Rukshana Sashankan: That's right
Jennifer Harrison: ... bank's solicitor, who was someone I'd never met before, right?
Rukshana Sashankan: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Harrison: Until the bank's solicitor gave me the nod. It's like, okay. It's amazing now that they let a twen- they let a 21-year-old graduate do this job. But a- but anyway. Yeah, so how, um, it sounds like a really good problem for technology to solve. Um, what might be some people's experiences from a technology perspective of, of PEXA?
Rukshana Sashankan: I think, um, you know, for, for a start, um, part of it w- is that streamlining, um, and we talked about efficiency. The other thing also is from a user point of view, you know, it's a cloud-based platform, so it enables multiple parties to access and exchange information in real time. And not, I would say, a technol- technological breakthrough by any measure, but a huge improvement on the previous paper process, um, as we've just talked about in terms of an experience. The other one in terms of the way, I guess, we harness technology is the use of digital signatures to sign documents and financials in each settlement. Uh, we do abide by a very high standard of digital signatures, um, sort of we are gatekeeper compliant in that way. Um, and that also ensures only authorized parties can approve a transaction, um, to proceed. Um, and I think the other one also is, uh, when we talk about technology and the way we've sort of, um, harnessed that for our solution, is the integration with other systems. So we do integrate with six land registries for the electronic lodgment component. We've got the revenue offices that we're integrated with for stamp duty, the RBA for those real-time payments, the ATO for their forms, um, and bank payment gateways to ensure that we're offering our users, uh, more options in terms of payments. And then we've also got our users who have their own systems that we integrate with. So that's the-- I guess those are the, I guess, the ways in which we would say, um, uh, the, the various sort of, I guess, experiences of it, the benefits of the exchange when they, when, when we do have our customers sort of signing in.
Jennifer Harrison: Hmm. That sounds fantastic. 'Cause for most people, you know, buying and selling property is one of the biggest financial transactions they will ever enter into in, in their life. Um, I know also that PEXA has a specific offering for property developers who have this problem at scale, right? They might be releasing five, 10, 15, 20, 100 or more properties onto the market, and they might be all settling within weeks of each other. Can you tell us a bit more about the particular challenges faced by property developers at settlement time? How-- and how does PEXA help with the PEXA Projects app?
Rukshana Sashankan: Yeah. Well, PEXA Projects, um, is definitely-- well, it's specifically designed for developers. Um, and the pain points around set- settlements for developers that we, um, address with PEXA Projects as a solution, um, uh, there's a, there's a varied range of benefits. But ones I'd like to call out here are the transparency and the pipeline views that developers have with PEXA Projects, where you've got the project status of multiple lots in one dashboard. Um, th- it's also about the accuracy of reporting that we can provide them for their financiers, and there's the real-time payment as well. So they're no longer waiting for those bank checks to clear. Um, and those are-- and, and all those for, for us right now from a developer client point of view is, is what we're addressing in terms of their needs. But in terms of, like, what we're working on as well, uh, it would be good to talk to that as well. We are at the moment looking at, um, settlement forecasting and reporting because we've heard from our customers in this segment, um, that that is exceptionally crucial to them.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm.
Rukshana Sashankan: And that's, um, very, very pleased to say that that's what we're gonna be focusing on in, in the next coming months.
Jennifer Harrison: Wonderful. Okay. So is that kind of just, is, is that, like, kind of like a prediction as to what tasks have been completed and where we are in the timeline?
Rukshana Sashankan: Yes.
Jennifer Harrison: What the team can expect on a, on a rolling basis going forward?
Rukshana Sashankan: Absolutely. Yep.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay. So I mentioned before, like, for most people, buying and selling property is one of the biggest financial transactions they'll ever experience in their life. These are very large amounts of money that need to move in order to settle. How does PEXA help to safeguard funds from fraud? And you did mention the integration with the RBA, but maybe you could talk a bit more about how do you make sure that that money moves as quickly as possible?
Rukshana Sashankan: So, Jen, it's a, um, the property is a, I would say in Australia, from what I know, it's roughly now a $10 trillion asset class. And so therefore, there's zero tolerance for risk. So the PEXA system, um, PEXA system security is aligned with international standards, and we continue to operate by complying with those requirements set by the e-conveyancing regulator, who are ANEC. Um, and we are also certified as an ISO 2711. Um, sorry, 001, I've gotta get that right, an ISO 27001 organization. Um, and as of today, more than 11 million transactions have been securely, safely conducted on the PEXA platform. So we are a robust, um, in terms of security measures, we provide a very robust, uh, s- uh, s- uh, protection for our customers and their clients when using the platform. We have the multi-factor authentication process to access the s- the system, and we also have for our subscribers, and, and that's who we reference as our customers, our subscribers to the platform, they also have to adhere to a security policy which sets out those security req- requirements for them to adhere to. Um, we know that email can be an inse- insecure means of sharing bank account details, and phishing can occur when, you know, um, as a result of those fraudulent payments. So we do recommend that s- subscribers and their clients use what we have as a product offering called PEXA Key.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm.
Rukshana Sashankan: And that's, that's an opportunity and, and, and a, a way to be able to communicate bank account details securely, and we built that specifically in response to cyber fraud and email phishing. Um, and it links directly with the PEXA platform. And, you know, when I hear stats like that payment redirection scams cost Australian businesses over 128 million in 2020, um, all scams reported surged to 323 million in 2021, according to the ACCC Scamwatch, that's scary figures. And it's only just be- it's be- the reality is beyond real anymore for our profession and our industry and our community. So, um, I think, you know, yes, we have PEXA Key, yes, we have these, the, the, the, the systems in place, but beyond that, um, I think, you know, it's definitely not exclusive to PEXA, and, um, we, you know, f- from our point of view, it's, the way in which we do this is to ensure that, yes, we're doing what we can from a security framework point of view and, and securing, um, offering that for our customers, but also to ensure we're working with our industry to heighten the awareness of cyber crime and support them, um, as a community to implement those measures where possible.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah. Someone said to me it, it's not milkshake money that we're talking about here. And if you are a cyber criminal, you know, targeting residential property settlement seems like a no-brainer, right? Because people are moving tens, hundreds, millions of dollars.
Rukshana Sashankan: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: And I think it's, um, I believe that the ACCC Scamwatch gets three complaints a week about, um, scams in the property industry, and that's probably only 10 to 15% of what is actually, you know-
Rukshana Sashankan: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... what's getting reported is probably just the tip, the tip of the iceberg. So I think it's, yes, incredibly important that we all do, um, whatever is necessary.
Rukshana Sashankan: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Even though m- multi-factor and all the rest, it, it does seem like, uh, I know for some people they think it's, you know, it's a pain. They don't understand why they have, they have to do it.
Rukshana Sashankan: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. Um, c- Rukshana, can you share with us what's coming up on the PEXA roadmap? Are you able to give us a bit of a sneak peek-
Rukshana Sashankan: Yeah. Love, always love to talk about the PEXA-
Jennifer Harrison: ... at some of the features that are coming up?
Rukshana Sashankan: Love to talk about the PEXA roadmap. And, um, so one of our major focuses this year are the A- our APIs.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm.
Rukshana Sashankan: So giving our customers the ability to directly integrate with PEXA and do their work from their own systems rather than logging into our web portal is gonna be a huge effici- efficiency and customer boost, and we recognize this. So we already have a suite of APIs that are more tech-savvy for our c- um, sorry, we already have a s- a, a set of APIs that our more tech-savvy customers are plugged into, but we are broadening that scope to, um, to, for, for all of our customers, and hopefully encourage them to integrate with us. And so that's work in progress, but what to expect in our roadmap. Um, the other one also that I'm really excited about is, um, that we will be looking at delivering mobile signing. So we wanna move away from the cumbersome hard tokens being used today to digitally sign documents and financials, um, without compromising our high level of security. So f- so signing via your mobile phones or mobile provides exactly that. So it's early days yet, but that's, um, that's definitely one that's on our roadmap. And I thought, Jen, it'd be good to sort of prob- probably also talk about, um, uh, what we're doing with our, um, UK-
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm
Rukshana Sashankan: ... um, expansion as well. So, uh, the UK infrastructure is, certainly has not been a lift and shift from Australia, and we are building new technology to go- together with ThoughtWorks, um, for, for the UK. Uh, we, we're following a similar delivery pathway to Australia, beginning with a remortgage, which is a refinance solution, uh, which we launched last September in England and Wales. We're leveraging the brand-new payment scheme, it's called PEXA Pay, which has been built in collaboration with the Bank of England. Um, and we'll be scaling this solution this year, welcoming more lenders. So it's just a little bit of a, I guess, an insight into our UK, um, expansion as well.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. Fantastic. Um, there has been a question put into the Q&A from Steven. Um, and he's pointed out that often it's a real estate agent that will take the 10% deposit to exchange the contracts. Is it currently possible for real estate agents to also use PEXA Key so they can communicate BSB and account number details securely?
Rukshana Sashankan: Uh, good question, and no, it isn't. Um, PEXA Key is purely for our customers, and customers at the mo- like, from our point of view, our customers are the ones who use our exchange, um, being the lawyers and conveyancers. So, um, for the, I com- there, there is definitely a, um, s- something there that Steven's talking about in terms of that need, and I'm, and, um, I can't talk to the real estate market, but yeah, for us, the key, um, PEXA Key is definitely for, and all intention is for our customers being our practitioners and, um, lawyers and conveyancers.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay. Great. And Rukshana, um, last question for you before I go and talk to Judith is-
Rukshana Sashankan: Mm-hmm
Jennifer Harrison: ... what are some of the ways that proptechs can work with PEXA? You've mentioned API integrations, but I'm also aware that PEXA has an accelerator program called PX Ventures.
Rukshana Sashankan: Yeah. Um, so through our PX Ventures board, we are always looking for opportunities to explore and enhance the wider property ecosystem for our customers. Um, our product digital growth teams are currently actually working with some amazing startups. Um, and I thought, uh, you know, we, we did talk about property developers previously, so just talking about sort of how we're working, I guess some examples of how we're working with some startups, wonderful startups, uh, one of them being Opex. So off-the-plan contract solution for lawyers and conveyancers, developers, real estate agents, and financial institutions. Um, we also partnered with Value Australia, so when large developers need to understand and estimate value creation, um, value creation impact for developments or infrastructure projects, we're working with them to offer a, a more, more enhanced solution for our developer customers. There's also Landchecker. I'm sure some of, um, some, you know, um, you'd know about the partnership with Landchecker. But, um, more specifically for what it, um, what, what that means for our developer customers as well is, is that we're taking out that sort of time-consuming research around sourcing and consolidating information from multiple sources, um, and also just sort of, um, enabling them to be able to assess project feasibility, identifying potential development opportunities, et cetera, with Landchecker. So yes, um, those are just s- a few of, um, several, uh, startups that we've partnered with, uh, to enhance our offering to our customers.
Jennifer Harrison: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Rukshana. That's a lot. We'll come back and have a, um, a chat later, but, uh, now, Judith, let's have a talk about Contrax. Can you start off please by giving us your elevator pitch?
Judith Hammerschlag: An elevator pitch. Sure. Um, so Contrax sits at the other end, uh, to PEXA, which is at the contract review amendment, uh, point in, uh, in buying property. So right at the beginning when you find a property that you like on the weekend and the agent gives you the contract and you've gotta go get it reviewed by your conveyancer and lawyer, um, that's where we sit. Um, so we've built some tech that you can upload your contract directly to our website, and then we will review the contract within 24 hours with a tech-based platform. Um, and our product is for lawyers and conveyancers to use, um, as well as consumers who can, who can head directly to our website. Um, so we built Contrax because of, um, the pain point essentially that we were finding as lawyers, uh, conveyancing lawyers, in this very specific part of buying property at that contract review stage.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. So can you tell us a little bit more about the problem? As, as you mentioned, often, yep, you might go and inspect a property.
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: It might be on your list of possibles.
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: You might not know whether you're gonna put in an offer or bid at auction.
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: But one of the things, you know, you should do as due diligence is, oh, yeah, I suppose I better have someone who's got a, you know, a legal qualification look at this contract. Um, what are some of the things that, that people should, you know, w- what can come up as part of that review of the contract?
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Can you tell us a little bit more about the problem that you're solving for there?
Judith Hammerschlag: Sure. So I think one of the problems, um, in the process, um, before I talk about the risks of the actual contract, is that in the property market in Australia, especially in the big cities, the speed at which the market moves is just crazy. Um, so you're dealing with big assets, big risks, as you say, um, the m- the biggest financial decision that, um, uh, most people will make in their lives. Um, and the legal nitty-gritty is caught up in this contract, um, that is actually of, you know, huge importance. Um, so the things to look out for in a contract, I guess, are the commercial risks, which is what our tech will pick up. Um, so, you know, there's, there's, um, risks that there might be an easement running. This is so very technical, but there's an easement running through the property in the backyard, which means that you won't be able to bre- build a swimming pool. So you've got to adjust your price at auction to say, "Look, this is gonna be the house without the swimming pool." Things like that. Or if there's a risk, um, we were talking about deposits at agents before. Um, so it's always a risk that if a deposit, uh, gets released to a vendor and they default on the purchase, that, um, you might lose your deposit. Um, so things like that, those are the, the bits and pieces that we pick up in the contract, um, for lawyers and conveyancers and purchasers alike.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. And so how are you using a technology as the solution there?
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah, sure. So the old school way of getting a lawyer to, um, look over your contract is just too slow. Um, so you used to at one point in time have the opportunity to find a property in a really, uh, in a really, uh, slow and, um, and thoughtful manner, and then find a lawyer and, um, send it off and do an engagement letter and everything else. If you do that in certain parts of Australia now, the property's been, already been sold five days before you've, you know, got your lawyer looking over the contract. So the engagement of the conveyance and lawyer's really quick because you can just upload the contract directly to contracts. Um, and then it gets picked up for review very quickly. So that's the first, just the onboardings, the onboarding part, uh, of, that we u- use technology for. And that's, and then also to tackle the actual nitty-gritty of the legals in the contract, um, so we did a huge amount of research on how lawyers and conveyancers are actually reviewing contracts, and we ca- we, it resulted in, like, some really interesting findings, as the lawyers would print out contracts. There's the conveyancers that have five screens. Um, so we hyperlink clauses to the parts of the contract so that everyone can really understand what they're looking at in the contract, um, and check against, uh, what's actually in it, as opposed to saying, "Clause Five says here." You can click on Clause Five and, and see what it actually says. Um, so that's our tech. And then also the amendment request. So this is another big risk area in conveyancing, especially in the residential market, is when requests go out, um, on a contract. You wanna go buy a property at auction on Saturday, and you need to ask for a 10-week settlement or Clause Five be removed. Um, the way that amendments are made to contracts, uh, it, to, to say it really bluntly, is pretty risky and very clunky. So we've put that all on platform so that anything that is requested and agreed to will automatically form part of an appendix, that whoever's handling the exchange can just attach to the contract and get the parties to sign, which means that it's done in a legally sound manner.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay, great. Now you mentioned before you are both B2B and B2C.
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Your platform's available to conveyancers and lawyers as well as direct to consumers. Can you talk a bit more, how are you actually approaching, you know, getting your clients going to market? Do you have an ideal client? And a question's come up in the chat. Someone would like to know are you, um, live in all states across Australia?
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah. Okay, yeah. Good questions. Um, so we are, um, we started with the beast, which is New South Wales, um, which probably has the most hectic of market, um, speed around Sydney. So we are, um, we are live now in New South Wales and the ACT, and we're hopefully, um, rolling out the tech into the other states and territories, um, sometime this year. Um, uh, your other question was how do we, what's our, um, our-
Jennifer Harrison: Your go-to-market, yep.
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah, yeah, sure. So the b- so buyers, um, we are finding, um... Sorry, consumers are finding us naturally. Um, they're looking for someone to review their contract, and they're looking to take action, um, straight away without having to make phone calls, especially the younger market. Um, so they're finding us quite naturally. Um, the B2B market, um, has been very, very, very interesting. Um, so there are a lot of people handling conveyances, and it's very different profiles. Um, you've got, uh, single conveyancers, um, who, um, are sole practitioners, um, and they are using us for a support essentially, so we're like their outsourced paralegal. And then you've got the bigger firms that are using us who can see that they can get sort of some economies in, um, in their practice. Um, so we're just seeing a whole range of, of people using it. But it's reassuring, um, that this is a, you know, as Luchana was saying before, settlements have always been a massive pain point for, um, conveyancers and lawyers, and I have that also, that experience of being shouted at in a settlement room and holding checks and running down to the bank and, you know, doing all that. Where we sit is also another huge pain point for practitioners and purchasers, um, and that's right at the front end of when you're starting to look at buying property.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. And a question also has come up in the chat. So your, are you focused just on the contract review, or, and this might lead into another question, which is gonna ask you what's coming up on your product roadmap.
Judith Hammerschlag: Sure. Sure.
Jennifer Harrison: Are, are you potentially trying to expand into other parts of the settlement value chain, or are you just thinking you're gonna focus on the contract review part?
Judith Hammerschlag: Sure. Um, so the contract review, um, the contract review is quite, um, is where, where we're focusing at the moment. Um, but we are now in the contract negotiation stage as well, which is also quite time-pressured and risk. Uh, um, it, it's quite laden with risk. Um, and then the exchange, uh, part of the process, that's when, you know, the contract review and amendments all flow on. So that's where we're sitting at the moment between, um, contract review and exchange. That's really our, or where we sit currently.
Jennifer Harrison: And what kind of feedback are you getting from, you know, for example, that, you know, sole suburban conveyancing practitioner or lawyers-
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah. Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... lawyers or c- consumers?
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah. So, um, we are getting... People are, people are shocked, um, that we have tackled this really, really hard legal nitty-gritty of the, um, of the, the industry and the, and the process, um, because it just is such high risk. Um, but we've go- had an amazing team of lawyers, um, and we've seen a huge amount of contracts come through our system now. Um, so we, we, we, you know, feel confident that we can really tackle the bad clauses and the bad easements and all, and all of the, the technical parts of buying a, uh, buying a property. Um, we, um, I guess we're a market first, um, so the conveyancers, um, have... Yeah, we've, w- we've been m- met really warmly, um, as a sort of a, a, a legal team, an outsourced legal team for, for small-time conveyancers. Um, and the purchasers like us because they like the, you know, they don't want the old-school lawyer engagement. They wanna just move quickly. And also, if their lawyer, look, lots of people have, um, huge loyalty to their lawyers, fair, um, fairly so. They've got, um, family lawyers. If their lawyer is unavailable, they can still use us for this part of the process and then engage their lawyer when they've got time. But if a, you know, if an auction's happening in an hour or it's a Sunday bid, um, we're, we're around for that.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. Great. What's coming, uh, what was I say? A couple of questions have come up in the chat.
Judith Hammerschlag: Sure.
Jennifer Harrison: Um, someone has asked, do you have real lawyers who, who get involved in reviewing the contracts? And someone else has asked, how does it work in terms of the liability of the conveyancer or the solicitor to their client if they're outsourcing certain parts of their res- their job to you?
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah. That's all, all, all good questions. So we are a legal team. Um, we are a legal team sitting in Sydney. Um, we're all lawyers, um, and we've, and but we've got a team of paralegal and conveyancers, but all locally based, which was really important for us, um, uh, to be locally, to have a local team. Um, now we, um, yes, so we, we have legal liability and insurance because we're, we're all lawyers, um, as well, and we're, we're actually an incorporated law firm. However, we're not taking away the role of the conveyancer. Um, a con- we basically still provi- we, we provide the framework for a conveyancer to speed up their processes and review the contract for their client. So how our tech works is a conveyancer or a buyer will upload the contract, and we will provide some suggested comments based on what we've found, and then the conveyancers and lawyers can modify it and check what we've done and send it off. So, um, look, we take, you know, if you, we, we understand that this is a hu- a huge area of responsibility that we've, um, we've tackled, and we don't take that, that, that role lightly. Um, but there's always gonna be a role for the conveyancer and the lawyer to, to check and amend and modify and make it customize the framework to, um, to what their client's needs are.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah. Perfect. And other than you mentioned you might be, um, getting involved in applying your technology into contract negotiations-
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... is there anything else that's coming up on your product roadmap?
Judith Hammerschlag: Um, I think not really, um, apart from, you know, attacking the negotiations in the exchange. Um, it's very interesting, um, to see what data we're getting on the clauses, um, and what's in contract, so that's quite interesting. And hopefully at some, at some point we can automate certain, and, and, and bring in some sort of automation of, of, of some of the, um, of the contract, um, the clauses, a bit of AI. Um, that's very interesting to us, which we're, yeah, we're, we're taking a close look at as well.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay. And final, um, question for you, Judith, and then I'll move on to Lara.
Judith Hammerschlag: Sure.
Jennifer Harrison: Someone has asked, as you mentioned, you're obviously getting to see a lot of contracts-
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... and a lot of clauses and lots of different ways to essentially attack the same, you know, purpose of documenting a property sale and purchase. Um, someone has asked, do you pass any of this information on to any third parties?
Judith Hammerschlag: Um, no. Uh, no, not at all. Um, we haven't, yeah, no, we, we just, um, we, this, in the... Look, I think a lot of our data would probably bore people.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah.
Judith Hammerschlag: Clause five means, you know, X or a drainage diagram. Um, so but no, it's, it's all, it's all kept into the internal team. Uh, but look, it is interesting to, to, to be getting the data on, um, on what is in a conveyancing contract in, in, in, in the States and in New South Wales in particular. Um, it's a, it's quite a small area of law. Um, but there are a huge, and you know, Rukshana could tell you, there are a huge amount of practitioners doing conveyancing. Um, so whilst it's a small area of law, uh, there's quite a varied ranges of practitioners and clauses in a, in a, in a standard conveyancing contract.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. Thank you so much, Judith, for telling us about Contracts.
Judith Hammerschlag: Thank you.
Jennifer Harrison: La- Lara, let's have a chat about the Law Store and Live Sign. So my first question to you is also, give us your elevator pitch.
Lara Paholski: Okay. Um, so our product, or main product being Live Sign, we are operating at the intersection of digital signatures and verification of identity. So if I can just take a quick step back to give some background to that. In the move to, if we think about digital, uh, documents getting signing, digital signatures, um, I feel the industry's been very quick to adopt that, and there's some great technologies out there. We have developed our own. But in the move to digital, the whole premise, or of digital signing, the whole premise of the, the core fundamental, um, premise of witnessing actually got somewhat lost along the way. So while we know that someone might write, as an example, Lara, they've signed that digital, that document digitally, we don't actually know anymore who's behind the device, and that's where we saw a gap in the market and where we've combined bringing digital identity or simultaneously making sure we're doing that and giving practitioners the tool to do that at the time their consumer is signing a digital document, so that you can know with absolute certainty who is signing that document and who is in control of the device.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm.
Lara Paholski: And that's where we saw a real gap. We didn't think there was, um, a- anyone, and we were first to market, to actually combine digital signing with real time, uh, verification of identity so that you knew who your signer was.
Jennifer Harrison: Great. So can you tell us a little bit more about how do you go about that digital verification of identity, and how are you using technology to bring this solution?
Lara Paholski: Yep. So we've built our... Good question. Thanks, Jen. We've built our own digital signing technology and then expanded that out to specific use cases. So I'll, I'll give what I think is a relevant example here today. If we think of a client authorization form, which Rukshana and Judith will be very familiar with as well, um, which gives a legal practitioner authority to deal or act on behalf of a consumer, we have a workflow whereby you can send that out to the client or a, a conveyancer, a lawyer, real estate agent, whoever might be sending one of those out. Um, to- To get that digitally signed using our signing technology. And at the precise point of signing, the consumer, after they've done that, it almost goes into a pending stage where we then actually kick into doing a real-time verification of identity. So we'll get that, that person or the consumer to go and get their passport, license, and, and we drill down through the categories of ID, uh, which are compliant with ARNC or e-Conveyancing Regulator, which Rukshana touched on earlier. We'll drill down through the categories of ID. If someone hasn't got a passport, go down to license, license, et cetera, to make sure that they meet a category of ID. They'll go and get their license and passport and capture images of that. Then they'll take a selfie. We'll biometrically match their facial features against the government-issued ID. Uh, and then once that's done, that's finished from the consumer's point of view and the legal practitioner or bank, uh, any of our clients will then be notified to say the client's finished their verification of identity signing, and they'll receive a simultaneous or correlating pack of a verification of identity report, um, to review, along with the signed, uh, documents with correlating transactional codes to ensure that they are tied together and were done in the same, same transaction.
Jennifer Harrison: Fantastic. So can you tell us a little bit more about how, how are you going to market? Who... Do you have an ideal client? Are you, I imag- are you mostly B2B? You're focused on the solicitors and conveyancers out there?
Lara Paholski: Yes. We very much are, Jennifer. We are B2B, uh, much like what Judith was talking about before. We, um, uh, my sweet spot, I've spent, you know, a decade in legal tech. So that's been very much a focus for us in the legal and conveyancing. Uh, well, we've got also very much focus on financial and property and real estate industries, um, 'cause there's some obviously huge risk points there of signing documents for large sums of money, and, and people are, you know, not sure who's actually signing those documents when they receive them back. Um, so that's been a really key focus for us to focus on, again, financial, legal, uh, conveyancing, property, and real estate industries. Um, and we're looking to expand, um, beyond those as well.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm-hmm. Um, Lara, a question's come up in the chat. Someone's wondering, do you, uh, s- do you kind of store any of these ID details such that the same signatory could just sign again? Um, or maybe that defeats the purpose of actually knowing exactly who's signing every time a document is signed.
Lara Paholski: Yeah. We, um, basically what we're doing is we're providing a tool for each transaction, um, that's being undertaken to get the document signed and conduct a correlating verification of identity. Now, it's up to the firm or the client if they would like to rely upon that again. I- in the world of conveyancers and lawyers, a verification of identity, um, that data, actually, there is a requirement, um, funnily enough, still to, to store that for sev- a minimum of seven years. Um, and if it is a repeat client, they can actually refer to that verification of identity report again. Um, in terms of signatures, we're not, uh, certainly not encouraging people to be using that over again. And I think, you know, with recent data hacks, Jennifer, I think people have very much moved away from just relying on old verification of identity, uh, reports and old documents. What, you know, it's something we're working really hard on to educate the industry. We are imploring them, um, you know, to think about how they're storing data and not taking that risk on themselves. We are... You know, please choose a partner, whether it's someone else or us, um, to do that for you. And in light of, you know, Medicare, um, you know, Optus, Latitude Financial even this week, where seven, I think it was, correct me if I'm wrong, 7.9-
Jennifer Harrison: Oh, it's millions. It's millions of driver's license details, isn't it?
Lara Paholski: Yes.
Jennifer Harrison: In the Latitude incident.
Lara Paholski: 7.9 million, I think it was.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah.
Lara Paholski: Yeah, Australian and New Zealand, uh, driver's licenses have, um, been stolen or the data compromised. So in light of even back, uh, Optus and Medicare, what we have done and moved very quickly to do is we have... We're now actually providing practitioners, so we store all the data so they don't have to take that risk on. They can do it if they want to, but again, we encourage them not to, and we make it accessible at all times to them. But we've actually, um, redacted the personal identifiable information within our verification of identity reports, um, so that if something was to get stolen or, um, an identity ha- identity hacker was to get in, um, the infor- the, the record of having done the VOI is actually there, but there's no of the personal data being compromised that it's near and useless to ident- I- an identity, uh, theft.
Jennifer Harrison: Got it.
Lara Paholski: Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Um, what kind of feedback are you getting from the market?
Lara Paholski: Um, we're, well, certainly in terms of how quickly we've moved to redact some of that data and providing solutions around that, um, without them having to compromise having accessibility, um, we're actually getting great feedback. Uh, I don't think many have moved quickly to do that, uh, in our space, Jennifer. Um, but they, you know, if we look at the real estate industry, some of the, you know, agents are in a really difficult position where they're being asked to get, uh, their client's identity data and store it, and yet, you know, there's all these, um, you know, identity hacks and theft going on. So they, they're always being compromised. Store this, capture this, you know, without necessarily having all the big systems that Medicare or Optus will have to, um, to manage it.
Jennifer Harrison: No, not at all. I mean, the real estate industry is actually a very fragmented industry. If you think of the people that you will encounter or may have encountered when you're buying and selling real estate, your mortgage broker, your conveyancer, your real estate agent, are probably just a local, you know, small business.
Lara Paholski: Very much Yeah. And that's why we're imploring everyone to, yeah, don't take the risk on yourself. As I said before, if you can, uh, whether it's us or someone else, don't, don't carry that risk, um, and put yourself and your client and, um, yourselves and your brand identity, yourselves at risk, um, or company reputation. Um, partner with some experts who've actually taken the time and invested in the money, technology, and security, um, t- for you to meet your legal or compliance obligations, and yet not, um, be risking or having to risk any of the, or compromising, uh, storage of that data.
Jennifer Harrison: Yeah. Fantastic. And what's coming up on your product roadmap? Are you able to share any sneak peeks with us?
Lara Paholski: Uh, yes. So we've got some specific user cases, as I mentioned before, that we've already built out for the mortgage industry, um, for signing digitals and secure, uh, signing of mortgages. Um, eCAF, which is our client authorization, uh, form solution, and then we're looking to build out that for other industries or some other use cases as well, specific to various, um, industries. And we are actually also looking to expand beyond the shores of Australia. Um, with that, I didn't mention before, Jen, but we've actually, we actually extract the data from a passport out of the chip in the passport. Most providers, um, will just take a photo of the, uh, passport page. We actually extract it out of the raw data out of the chip in a passport, which gives us coverage in just over 100 countries around the world. Um, so we feel we're well placed to operate globally, and in fact, we already are from the shores of Australia. Um, but it's now just whether we actually set up, um, you know, go beyond the shores and set up a presence overseas.
Jennifer Harrison: Amazing. Thank you so much for telling us about LifeSign, Lara. Um, if anyone does have a question for anyone on the panel, uh, please do use the Q&A or chat facility. Um, I might just throw around a couple of general, um, questions now. Um, Rukshana, I know, uh, we were in, in preparation for this, you said you, you, this, um, panel had caused you to think a little bit about, you know, what are the intersections of proptech and legal tech, and maybe what is the sweet spot of the intersection there. Um, would you like to share a little bit more about what your thoughts were, please?
Rukshana Sashankan: I'd love to, um, Jen. And I think, uh, my personal background is, um, property law, so I've come from a lawyer, like a, uh, I was a lawyer in, before joining PEXA. And I was very fortunate to have, um, lots of, l- a couple of, actually, lawyer, really good lawyers who also had a very tech savvy background. So I've, I really saw, um, the benefit of the knowledge of property and technology, um, for a practice and how that sort of, you know, really sort of benefited the operations as well as the overall customer experience. And then moving into PEXA and looking at proptech and just bringing those two together from... 'Cause I was also a PEXA customer before moving in. So I've been very passionate about how to see the way those intersections do work. And more and more as, um, you know, I've been now with p- with PEXA for six odd years and learning a lot from the industry and from the, um, wonderful people here on this panel as well. What we can see is, is that, uh, regardless of what the technology is, whether it is in the actual legal space or in the proptech space, we are solving human problems. And those solutions really need to be underpinned by a real genuine commitment to continue to go back to our target markets, so to our genuine customers and those that really require that. And I think from personal experience from, from myself, you know, we, we can say that we do listen to our customers. Sometimes we can be overambitious and overreach, then we've gotta pull back and work that out, and that's that fine line in those intersections of going, yes, we do wanna conquer the world and make sure we can give all, absolutely everything to our customers, but at what, um, and, and but what is that position and what is our ultimate responsibility in, in the space that we play? And, um, you know, and, and how, how we go about that. So, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm keen to hear from Judith and Lara on that as well. But I just think, you know, from that sort of human element aspect, um, we've got some amazing customers across the, you know, and industry, um, that we access to be able to make sure that we're sort of on point in relation to that. And then, and I, and I guess one more thing also is just the empathy. Um, it's not something that we've, uh, definitely created more of in, um, in PEXA, is sort of empathy journeys and c- you know, creating the opportunity for our product team to have, um, more connection with our customers to understand what that empathy journey is in their, in their actual process of property to see whether we do have those solutions that we can play, like sort of play back to them to say, "Does that actually solve the need f- from an intersection point of view of property and tech?" Yeah.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. I, I think it's interesting to see, or it will be interesting to see with legal tech, a l- a lot of proptech initially was aimed at real estate agents. It was aimed at helping real estate agents be more efficient and get more done during the day. It wasn't initially aimed direct at the consumer. But now the consumer proptechs are coming up behind that and are offering their technology direct to consumer. And as some of them are actually now trying to disrupt real estate agents, actually. They're trying to offer alternative, you know, listings, platforms, and sale direct by, by seller. I think it'll be really interesting to see with legal tech how that evolution goes. And I know PEXA, you're already enabling, you know, some of, um, like within PEXA Key, I think the, the seller and buyer can go in directly and see, you know, the timeline of their transaction. And Judith, you s- y- that your, um, service is available direct to the consumer as well. I'm just wondering, Judith, are you seeing any particular differences in those two markets, in the professional market versus the consumer market?
Judith Hammerschlag: Um, yeah, that's a, a really interesting question. I think that, um... I think that the, the problem that we're tackling for both of those markets is, um, the speed and the risk inherent in, uh, where we, where we sit as mainly residential property. Um, and those problems are, um, for the buyer who is getting pressured to put in offers, um, as well as the lawyer who is getting pressured by the buyer to put in, you know, to review the contract to put. So those pressures are, are exactly the same. So I'd say speed and risk. Um, but I, I think for the conveyancers, um, and lawyers, um, uh, you know, as we're talking, um, uh, unfortunately, I think the risk is getting, um, bigger and bigger. Um, and so if there's any tools that you can use, you know, um, to, to mitigate your risk, um, as a conveyancer lawyer, that's gonna flow onto the buyers. It's all sort of interrelated, the, the two markets.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. And I'll just stick with you, Judith, and then I'll come and ask each of you in turn. So just a little bit curious personally-
Judith Hammerschlag: Yeah
Jennifer Harrison: ... um, because you're all qualified lawyers. You've all got a background as, you know, legal pract- practitioners, managing those files, managing those time sheets. What was it that made you decide to take the leap into the world of legal tech? Judith first.
Judith Hammerschlag: There, there's probably some insanity in all in all of us leaving nice, uh, cushy, uh, law jobs to do it. Um, uh, but look, I think, you know, um, the beauty of all of us is that we have actually lived out those problems, and I don't think you can build a successful product that people are gonna want unless you really know what that pain point is, and to stick very much to that, like, to, to your, stick to your lane of what you know. Um, and I just think that that expertise and that, um, you know, that, that first-hand experience of some pain point of how you can do, do it better, um, is absolutely imperative for companies like ours. Um, so we know what our market is, we know what the problem is, and we're doing our best to solve that specific problem.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay. And, um, Lara, what was, what was... Was there a particular trigger or a particular, uh, moment of clarity you had when you decided to come into technology?
Lara Paholski: Uh, absolutely. Funnily enough, unlike, um, Judith and Rukshana, I actually came out of a media and corporate communications background. So, um, I have brought a completely different lens to it, and my, uh, husband, um, had a, a, has a, a conveyancing background, um, and a conveyancing firm. And approximately 10 years ago, he wanted to build a digital verification solution for what would be just his own firm. Um, and it ended up growing into more with the likes of PEXA and others coming to us to say we should consider taking that, or to him, further abroad and outside of his company. So we started our own digital verification company approximately 10 years ago. Um, and you know, we were speaking another language back then, um, trying to get people to digitize verification of identity. But that was a decade ago on very early days with the likes of PEXA, et cetera. Um, and then I've since obviously moved into this, uh, company here at the Law Store. Um, so it was accidental and again, took a really big risk to leave what was a very comfortable job to go in and, and build that startup off, literally off a kitchen table, which we did, and grew it to be into one of the big major three verification identity solutions at the time. Um, and yes, now I'm here at the Law Store. I've been here approximately two years.
Jennifer Harrison: Great. And Rukshana, what was your moment of clarity to join PEXA?
Rukshana Sashankan: Uh, moment of... Yeah, I think, uh, for me it was, uh, the mo- um, sort of where, to seeing the opportunity around what, um, the... Because in my space in law, it was all around the innovation space. Like, we were really creating our own sort of CRMs, um, our own software, and so that was the way. Like, we were a pretty, um... I was in a firm that was quite high-volume in property, so that's what we did. So to me, it was more about that extension of going, where can we take this, and what that enablement does, and engaging with my peers, um, to say, "Look, this is really awesome stuff here, technology. We should be all onto this." And I just, um, it was, it wa- I, I don't know if it was a moment of clarity or, um, yes, uh, whether it was just, it was time to lean into something different.
Jennifer Harrison: It was a moment.
Rukshana Sashankan: It was a moment. It was a moment. I don't know if it was clarity, Jen. But yeah, no, I, um, and I think the, the, it was certainly the empathy that I brought to PEXA, I would say, in being able to go back to our customers and say, "I've been there. I know exactly what you're doing and how you're feeling, and let's work on this together." And that's just been really, for me, it's been, um, it's the best part of what I do. So very much, very much appreciate it.
Jennifer Harrison: Mm. Yeah, I know with, with founders or with anything in technology, that, that empathy or, uh, like, the founder's personal passion to solve the problem is absolutely a secret source, in, in, in my opinion, to the s- future success of a venture. Well, I think we are coming up for time. Um, so that's been a fantastic discussion. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about proptech and legal liaisons, leaning into the intersections. Uh, Rukshana, how can people connect with you personally, and how can people find out more about PEXA?
Rukshana Sashankan: Please, I, I'm on LinkedIn, so you can personally, um, reach me, um, or on, um, directly through PEXA, and then we, um, we have all of our details on our website, so pexa.com.au.
Jennifer Harrison: Perfect. And can people also sign up for the Property Now-
Rukshana Sashankan: Yes
Jennifer Harrison: ... newsletter on the website?
Rukshana Sashankan: Yes, you can. I'd be in trouble for not actually promoting that one, Jen. So yes, you've got, uh, the Property Now and Property Insights reports that you can, as you just, uh, sort of search up, uh, PEXA Property Insights, um, they're, um, subscriptions that you can have for free. So yes, absolutely. Thank you.
Jennifer Harrison: And Judith, how can people connect with you personally and also find out more about Contrax?
Judith Hammerschlag: Sure. Um, I love connecting with people personally. I probably do it a bit too much, so I'd love any- anyone who's interested to reach out, um, also on LinkedIn. And if you're based, uh, in, in Sydney, um, you can always stop by and I'm always happy to have a coffee. Um, and otherwise Contrax is, um, is online. Um, so you can, um, hit up our website, and we've got a team to answer any questions as well. Um, yeah, that's us.
Jennifer Harrison: Okay. Thank you, Judith. And Lara?
Lara Paholski: Like the girls, I am on LinkedIn. Love connecting with people, whether it be in person or via LinkedIn, so please, by all means, reach out to me on there. And also, uh, we have a website, live-sign.com, um, that's supported by a great, uh, customer support team as well.
Jennifer Harrison: Perfect. Well, thank you very much to Rukshana Sashankan from PEXA, Judith Hammerschlag from Contrax, and Lara Pahulsky from The Law Store and Live Sign for joining me today. If you are not already aware, entries for the Proptech Awards 2023 are open. They will close on the 9th of May. And on next month's panel, I will be interviewing some of last year's winners to maybe pick up some tips and tricks on how you can make the finalists and be a winner for this year. So look out for details, please, on our LinkedIn. Please follow if you don't already. And if you go over to the Proptech Association website, you can also subscribe for our newsletter. Following us on LinkedIn and subscribing for the newsletter are the best way to stay up to date with our events. Thank you very much for joining me today, and see you next month.
