Proptech panel: when America sneezes

8 hours ago

44 min read

US technology layoffs and tighter venture funding raised urgent questions for Australian proptech founders in early 2023. In this Proptech Association Australia panel, moderator AJ Chand brought together Ari Ginsburg, Marisa Warren and Peter Schravemade to discuss how those global changes could affect local businesses.

The conversation examines investment discipline, revenue, international expansion and the differences between US and Australian property markets. This archive recording captures the panellists’ views at the time, rather than a current market forecast.

On the panel:

AJ Chand – founder and CEO, Instarent (moderator)
Ari Ginsburg – startup advisor, Earnnest
Marisa Warren – co-founder and general partner, ALIAVIA Ventures
Peter Schravemade – manageing partner, REACH

The conversation covered:

(00:03) AJ Chand opens the panel by framing the current tech landscape of layoffs, valuation slashes, and cross-border expansion.
(01:36) Ari Ginsburg compares US and Australian markets, highlighting how Australian banks pass interest rate risk directly to homeowners.
(07:56) Ari breaks down key US economic drivers, pointing to the debt ceiling, shifting household formations, and worker flexibility.
(15:53) Ari discusses how US tech layoffs and funding constraints are forcing proptechs into expense reduction modes.
(22:32) Marisa Warren introduces ALIAVIA Ventures, sharing her background backing female-led tech startups across the US and Australia.
(25:04) Marisa explains why her fund invested in Neighborlytics and how social data helps developers understand neighbourhood usage.
(34:10) Marisa notes that venture capital is returning to fundamentals, demanding repeatable sales revenue rather than growth at all costs.
(42:15) Peter Schravemade introduces REACH Australia and explains the shift back to commercial viability over inflated valuations.
(46:57) Peter argues that the Australian property industry is actually more mature and heavily regulated than its American counterpart.
(50:08) Peter outlines the two distinct approaches Australian proptechs use when scaling to the US, comparing top-down versus grassroots strategies.
(53:13) Peter shares a cautionary tale about cultural translation mistakes when launching Australian proptech marketing overseas.
(56:22) Peter highlights that one-third of the vendor hall at Inman Connect in Las Vegas was made up of Australian and New Zealand companies.
(58:00) Marisa emphasises that Australian founders possess a competitive advantage because they are already conditioned to focus on business model fundamentals.
(59:09) Peter and Ari share practical advice on landing in the US, stressing the importance of pre-planning, target audiences, and understanding local markets.

In their words:

“I believe the Australian property industry is more mature than the American. We can have fights about this later. Maybe not from a financial standpoint, but we've got a regulated industry here, heavily regulated by government.” – Peter Schravemade

“Revenue is queen. You gotta have consistent, repeatable sales revenue. You need to get on the ground there. Every market is so fundamentally different.” – Marisa Warren

“The US is leading the world with the number of proptech companies, of all different sizes, all different capital funding and the overall sector is a little bit more mature than Australia. It doesn't mean better, it just means more mature.” – Ari Ginsburg

About the panel:

AJ Chand is founder and CEO of Instarent and board member of the Proptech Association of Australia; Ari Ginsburg is a startup advisor at Earnnest with two decades of experience in insurance and US proptech; Marisa Warren is co-founder and general partner at ALIAVIA Ventures and a long-time tech executive backing female founders; and Peter Schravemade is manageing partner at REACH Australia and a real estate veteran with deep experience in scaling global proptech.

Transcript:

This is an automated transcript of the panel, lightly edited for readability. Please excuse any errors.

AJ Chand: Hello, everyone, and welcome to our proptech panel, When America Sneezes, Australia Catches a Cold: The Impact of the US Economy on Australian proptech. Thank you for joining us today. My name is AJ Chand, and I'm a founder and CEO in the proptech space, also a board member of the Proptech Association of Australia. Before I begin, um, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of our land and pay respects to elders past, present, and emerging. A special thanks to Stone & Chalk and the Proptech Association for making this event possible, and a great big welcome to our guests, Ari Ginsburg from Earnnest, Marisa Warren from ALIAVIA, and Peter Schravemade from Reach. The tech space is ever-changing, more true than ever since the start of this year. We have have seen huge tech layoffs, company valuations slashed, capital constraints, leaving founders, CEOs, and investors, with everyone asking what's next. Uh, we have seen many tech platforms scale into the US, and we've seen US tech platforms scaling Down Under. How will this change affect our startup ecosystem? I believe there is no right answer, but our intention today for this panel is to shed some light to this. Let's begin with you, Ari. Ari, you recently moved to Australia from the US. Tell us a little bit about your background in proptech and how you feel the Australian and US markets compare.

Ari Ginsburg: Hey, uh, sure. Uh, thank- Great to see you, AJ. Thanks so much for, for having me here today. Um, I was in the traditional insurance sector for, for about, uh, 20 years. Uh, wanted a change and follow one of my passions, which is real estate. Uh, beginning in the mid-2010s, uh, I w- I worked for several fintech and, and proptech companies, initially as a subject matter expert. Um, I was fortunate to work with se- in several, uh, uh, real estate subsectors, including payments, uh, valuations, and home investing. Uh, had an opportunity to move to Sydney mid last year, and it, and it's been fantastic. Uh, met some of you through the proptech Australia Association and, uh, and hope to, uh, to meet more of you. Um, with respect to the second part of your question, how do the Australian and, and US real estate markets compare, um, so, so there's a lot to unpack here. And, and I f- I'll probably break this down in- into three separate parts: uh, uh, uh, differences, uh, similarities, and, and also the commercial side. You know, there are obviously, uh, you know, a couple of, of, of big differences. You know, one is the scale of the market. Um, you know, population, uh, uh, number of units, uh, for sale and for rent. And the other is the distribution of, of financing risk. A- and, you know, by, by that I mean, you know, who owns borrower credit risk and who owns interest rate risk? You know, in, in Australia, banks take on credit risk and pass on interest rates to borrowers. Uh, but in the US it's really different. And in large part, government agencies take on the credit risk and, and investors take on the interest rate risk. So pretty much leaves the banks in a lot of cases without substantial risk to residential mortgages and existing borrowers, uh, w- without, uh, facing the risk of, of, of, of rising rates. Um, you know, by comparison, this year in Australia, I think the RBA estimates that, uh, uh, approximately 800,000 homeowners, um, are, are facing risks of, uh, uh, of significantly higher interest costs, uh, you know, because they'll just roll to a higher rate. You know, borrowers are going to be hugely price sensitive now that their mortgages are going up. And if they can get a discount on, on expenses or, or on, on, on costs or on rates, it's going to be real money. I think a year ago, you know, borrowers were just, were just not as price sensitive, you know, because rates were so low. It j- it just didn't matter. So now that I think they're going to shop, they're going to, they're going to compare, they're going to seek quick execution. So I think this is a huge opportunity for proptechs to provide value. You know, they can use technology to take friction to s- to sort of out of that system, you know, by, by helping consumers and borrowers execute quickly, efficiently, and, and, and more effectively. You know, I think there are also some similarities as well. And top of mind for, for many people in, in both the US and Australia are the challenges of, of home availability, uh, affordability, and, and house price appreciation. You know, availability drives afford- drives affordability and, and affordability is driven by home price appreciation, uh, and, and now rising interest rates. You know, here and in the US, th- there are several factors which I think, you know, contribute to this. One is the available- availability of, of skilled labor, or, you know, who's going to actually build your house. Uh, the second is, is zoning, which, you know, may be more of a, a political, uh, issue in nature, but it really goes to, to home density, house density. And, and the third is, is the effect of climate change. You know, uh, homeownership in the US and Australia, a- actually, actually globally, um, you know, i- is, is usually the largest individual asset and single source of wealth, and it's often at risk for, for damage or, or destruction related to increasing incidents of, of climate events. You know, many of these risks are either underinsured or, you know, likely to be uninsurable in the future given the current construct. So, you know, you think about the, the recent floods in Auckland, uh, the floods and fires that we've experienced here in Australia, a- as well as California for that matter, and the severe hurricanes- On the East Coast of, of the United States. So I think that the people who can figure out, uh, you know, how we build more sustainable homes, um, you know, that, that are green and can survive more of these, these events, um, without being destroyed, that, that's a global thing. And, and sort of understanding the, the intersection, uh, you know, between where we can remediate the, the, the current housing stock and make it more sustainable and insurable, it's gonna matter to everybody. It's gonna matter to governments, it's gonna matter to homeowners in particular, but it's also gonna matter to lenders because, you know, the house is the largest, uh, part of collateral behind their loan. And on, on the, on the commercial side, uh, you know, in both the US and Australia in a post-COVID world, you know, i- if in some instances people are only going to the office, say, for example, two to three days a week, you know, there has to be a better way to manage commercial occupancy. I think this is an opportunity for a fundamental shift where, you know, in, in certain instances where, uh, you know, less commercial space is needed a- and, and to determine how it's, how it's used. If it's... It's just not efficient if there's 100% occupancy on a, on a Tuesday or a Wednesday, and then a fraction of that on Mondays, Thursdays, and, and Fridays. So again, I think this may r- there may be an opportunity here to, to yield manage space, um, you know, in, in some markets. Not all markets, but in some markets. And, and, you know, a good example of this, I think, is, you know, if you think about the airlines. You know, think about Qantas. D- during COVID, Qantas yield managed flights between Sydney and Melbourne. Um, if you can figure out a better way to, to optimize the current space, I think you're gonna get paid a lot for it. Can't hear you.

AJ Chand: You've raised some really good points there, so thank you for that. Um, so what are the key economic, economy issues impacting the US, and how are they affecting US real estate and proptech?

Ari Ginsburg: So I think the short answer is interest rates, inflation, and housing supply, which I sort of touched on. But, uh, you know, for purposes of this conversation, I'd, I'd rather talk about what I think are some, maybe some more interesting drivers, which are, you know, uh, th- the US debt ceiling, um, demographic trends, a- and drivers around choice. You know, um, i- the debt ceiling in the US in the short term can be a significant, can create significant volatility in the global financial markets if, if the US just can't sort out and, and, and increase the, the, the debt limit. Um, you know, currently the US has reached its borrowing capacity, and I think that's somewhere around th- 31 or $32 trillion, um, which is sort of sound, sound, sounds sort of amazing. And the Treasury right now, the US Treasury, is, is using extraordinary measures to ensure that it doesn't default on its own debt. Um, these options though can run out, um, a- as soon as June. Um, so if that happens, it's big, and Austra- Australia wouldn't be immune actually. Um, you know, I... While I am concerned about the ability of, of the two political parties in the US, the Democrats and the Republicans, to, to sort they, their way through it, I, I pretty much have every expectation that if, if they do mess this up, um, that they will rectify it, it, it, it really quickly. You know, going to the sort of the second point with regard to demographic trends, um, you know, I, I think demographic trends are, are, are critical, you know, when it comes to the, the US, uh, real estate and, and, and proptech sector. A- and by that, I mean household formation. You know, because household formation is changing. Um, and I don't think that's just a US phenomenon. Um, you know, more and more people are single. Um, there are more couples who are not having children, and there are ageing baby boomers. And I think this requires thinking about changes in, in what people seek in housing, in their housing stock, and how it better fits their needs. So again, I think there's a number of proptech opportunities here. And, and the last one is, is sort of drivers around choice, and this dovetails to maybe something I said a little, a little bit earlier. But in, you know, in the past, people lived near where they worked. And now they may, they may have more choice. Um, a- again, this could be preference, you know, whether or not you like the beach or if you like the mountains, and it also could be climate driven as well. But I think we're seeing changes in home prices in some places where we just didn't expect this because of the flexibility of where you work. So in, uh, I, I ca- I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't tell you, you know, it... So it, it's not clear if this is a forever trend or if, if this is just, um, something that we're just seeing right now.

AJ Chand: And how is this similar or different to what we're seeing, um, here, do you think?

Ari Ginsburg: So I, I see a couple of, of differences and a, and a couple of similarities. You know, there's, thankfully there's, there's no debt limit, uh, you know, crisis here, but there is a very different impact of debt service cost on, on individuals, you know, seeking, you know, uh, you know, o- on individuals' existing mortgages or people who are rolling off of fixed or, or, or even variable rate mortgages. So I think in the US, rising interest rates have very little impact on, on existing borrowers. But, but here in Australia, that, that impact could be pretty significant. The second part, I think, is, is with respect to, to valuations. You know, a- as home values are expected to decline in, in Australia at, at a more accelerating rate in the, in the next 12 to 18 months, I think lenders and homeowners are gonna want a frictionless, fast, and accurate home valuation, you know, at, as, as both, you know, mortgagors or-... mortgages are, are reset. And, and there are new buyers who come into the market as well. Uh, you know, lenders are gonna require it, homeowners are gonna want it. And again, I think of it as another prop tech opportunity for valuation companies to demonstrate their, their, their technology strengths. So I think, you know, there'll be a lot of people who will pay for it, will pay, pay more for it. You know, by comparison, in the US, um, rising rates have disrupted the investor market. Um, you know, tech capabilities evaluation are gonna be much more valuable now, uh, to investors because i- i- you know, the market in the past in, in the US, um, anybody could basically buy at incredibly low rates and, and then rent out the property and, and make a good return. And I think that's changing. And, you know, you know, think about the economics on a portfolio of, of 10,000 units. Um, so, so it, so I, I think that, you know, the, the last part with respect to, to drivers around choice, you know, let's just take a look at price appreciation, uh, during, during COVID in, in areas outside of Melbourne and Sydney. You know, take, take Brisbane and, and Adelaide. You know, people moved because they could work remotely. They purchased homes or, or second homes i- in areas of preference, and prices increased much more than we originally ta- anticipated.

AJ Chand: Yeah. So true. Um, I think, I think the movement of people, because now everyone can work from home, the choices are just much greater than they used to be. So it is, um, definitely moving some of the real estate trends. Again, after COVID, it's, it's, you know, everything, all the trends are changing, so it's, um, it's interesting. So what's the vibe in the US at the moment?

Ari Ginsburg: Huh.

AJ Chand: Is it, is it more positive or negative, um, to what you're seeing here?

Ari Ginsburg: It's a bit of a loaded question. Um, you know, yeah, um, I think in the real estate sector the vibe is more negative in the US than, than it is in Australia, uh, to be honest. You know, many markets, I think it's very frustrating, um, you know, because there's just limited residential housing, uh, uh, stock supply. It, it, you know, it... There are in- incredibly low fixed rate mortgages, uh, i- in the past have essentially locked a lot of people into their homes. And, and, and otherwise if they were to move it would be far more expensive. You know, on, on the commercial side, it, it's a bit of a bifurcated market. You know, there are significant vacancies in, in, in, in New York, in, in, in San Francisco, in Chicago, a- and in Boston. But if you go to Charlotte and Tampa, there's a r- there's a commercial real estate shortage. So I think from, you know, i- if you look at it from a prop tech perspective, um, you know, in the US, prop techs of all sizes a- and, and fundraising rounds are just, they're just having more difficulty raising capital at valuations they think are fair. Um, a- and I think, you know, in, in part because investor expectations have changed. You know, i- in, in the past, uh, there was an expectation that, that a startup could burn cash for, for three to five years and, and, you know, I think now investors are, investors are... have a much shorter horizon on, on cash burn. So they're just looking for a much more managed, a much more managed approach. You know, also I think with, with very low unemployment, you know, we, we talk about layoffs, but, you know, now let, let's go to sort of the, the broader, uh, uh, um, um, metric. You know, I think prop techs have, have two choices. They either can, can pay more for talent, you know, or they can try to forgo a cap raise and, and dramatically reduce expenses. You know, we're seeing both i- in the US, but I think right now it seems like, you know, there are more prop techs in the US that are sort of in this, uh, expense reduction mode.

AJ Chand: Yeah, and that is, that is true for a lot of Australian prop techs as well from what we're seeing in the market. It's, um, reducing burn and making, and making sure that, you know, you can, you can survive the next 18 months or, or to do a capital raise. And there's, or definitely alternatives now. And, and, um, a lot of founders are doing the right thing I think in that aspect. Uh, what about the broader tech industry? There's been a lot of layoffs in the big tech companies. Is that affecting the global industry do you think?

Ari Ginsburg: Well, I mean, tech layoffs have, they've been on the news a lot, and it's what's made the vibe pretty negative in the US, particularly over the past, you know, three to six months. You know, tech companies, particularly the, um, what I'm gonna say are, like, the, the large household names, um, you know, scaled up dramatically during COVID for future growth. And, and a- and then now a few, a few different things have happened, you know. Uh, you know, the economy is pumping the brakes a, a bit, so larger tech companies, they wanna manage their, their expense base because they're expecting and they're starting to see, you know, revenues, uh, uh, uh, decline a bit. And I also think, you know, there, there's, uh, there's something else that's happening. It's a little bit of an interesting phenomenon. You know, tech companies are looking, sort of looking to the left and to the right a little bit, and they're starting to see layoffs in, in, in, either in their sector or, or, or in tangential sectors. And so I think there's a little bit of the, the, the contagion effect here as well. People are starting to think, you know, how can we do things a little bit better, smarter, differently, with, with fewer people. Um, you know, in the, in the US, uh, you- prop techs unfortunately led the, led the stream of, of, of layoffs. But it's not just prop techs and, and tech companies that have been affected by the layoffs. In, in the US, the entire real estate sector, you know, sort of, you know, has, has, has reduced staff a, a bunch. And, you know, there are just fewer homes on the market. There are fewer deals. There are fewer home purchases, much fewer refis. Um, so I think there are just fewer revenue generating opportunities. Um, and, and it's, it's not surprising given interest rates. You know, it's happened before. But I think what's surprising is how, how quickly it's happened.

AJ Chand: Yeah. That is, I think, what, nine interest rate rises, you know, from the RBA in Australia. Like, I don't think anyone expected that. But, um, it is what it is, I guess, at, at this stage, and it looks like it's, it's going to worsen before it gets any better.

Ari Ginsburg: Mm-hmm.

AJ Chand: Uh, what do you think are the key differences between Australian and US proptech?

Ari Ginsburg: So probably the other panelists are maybe better to answer that than me, but I'll take a shot. You know, I'm looking at you. Uh, yeah, I, I'm still pretty fresh in, in, in, in, in Australia, so, you know, it may be premature for me to comment in depth here. Um, but I can, I can take a stab and, and, and, and talk about a couple of things. You know, I think first, you know, the US is, is leading the world with the number of proptech companies, uh, you know, of all different sizes, all different, uh, sort of capital funding and, and the overall sector is a little bit m- more mature, uh, than Australia. It doesn't mean better, uh, it just means more mature. Um, you know, and I think sometimes the smaller nascent US proptechs, just have more difficulty getting a seat at the table. Um, so I think it may be easier for smaller Australian companies, uh, to get the attention of, of, of capital providers, uh, you know, investors and, and, and partners. And, and, you know, second, uh, and, and this is, you know, from some of the conversations I've had with, with folks here, I, I'm gonna sort of put this under the, the, the heading of, of international or global focus. And I've noticed that Australian proptechs initially think about transferability to, to other markets outside of the United Stat- uh, pardon me, outside of Australia. Um, and in part it may be out of necessity, uh, you know, because of the size of the addressable market here. And I, I think it's the way, you know, uh, proptechs here structure companies, the way they code, the way they develop, a- and the way they envision their products and their, and, and their use cases. And I think by, by comparison, uh, in proptech companies in the United States, they often focus on a proof of concept and, and envisioning themselves as a US-based, based company, and focus on the build without fully considering, um, an, an international component. And, um, you know, a- again, it may be because the addressable market in the US is, is, is much larger, but, but I think that's a mistake. And, and sometimes I think it'd be pretty costly in terms of having to, to either redevelop or, you know, re- re- or modify licensing or, you know, from certain regulatory, uh, uh, uh, issues they may face as well.

AJ Chand: Okay. So what does the next six to 12 months hold, you think? As, as I know it's a broad question, but just give your thoughts on it.

Ari Ginsburg: Um, uh, so, you know, in, in the US, a- assuming Congress increases the, the, the, the debt limit, I think we're in store for, for at, at, at least a couple more, uh, uh, rate rises or rate increases from the Federal Reserve. I think the, the economy, despite the layoffs in, in fintech and in proptech and in real estate, it is still incredibly hot. And, and unemployment is at historic lows. I think the US unemployment rate right now is, is at a 50-year low at, at, at 3.4%. Um, you know, keeping inflation down is top of mind for, you know, politically as well as, a- as economically. And, and nationally, I think home prices will probably remain sticky with a little bit of downside. I think in- inventory is gonna stay exceptionally low, but I think what you're gonna start seeing is inventory sitting maybe a little bit longer. And, and overall I think, you know, there'll be continued pressure, uh, i- in real estate, proptech and, and, and by extension in the fintech sector.

AJ Chand: Thank you, Ari. That's, um, very insightful. Um, and I appreciate, I appreciate your comments.

Ari Ginsburg: Yeah.

AJ Chand: Now to you, Marissa. Um, can you please tell us a little about yourself and Elevate Ventures, please?

Marisa Warren: Absolutely. Yep. Dialing in from Brisbane today. So I've been on a bit of a, an Australia-wide tour and usually live in Laguna Beach in California. Uh, so my background, um, uh, so two sides. So there's the tech side and the, and the property side. So on, on the tech side I, I got into tech in '97, so I've seen a few ups and, up, up and down cycles. Worked for companies like SAP, Microsoft, Workday, both across Australia and the US. I'm one of those lucky ones that have dual citizenship. Uh, lived and worked in, uh, New York for a number of years and, and now obviously in, in California. Um, I, in 2015 I started have, uh, being a bit disillusioned with, with tech and, and the lack of, um, females in tech, started a pre-accelerator for, uh, women tech founders to help them get investment ready and funded. Um, that was called Elevar Co. Since then, um, we've had 175 women through the program, both across Australia and the US, um, that have raised more than 120 million, uh, and had three exits. Um, that was sort of key to, to then the next part of my journey, um, establishing a venture fund. So in, in 2020, in the midst of, uh, lockdown and, and realizing we were having weekly calls with our, um, alumni both across Australia and the US and we just saw funding dry up overnight for, for women. So, um, the... And both the accelerator and the VC fund, um, when we say women founders we say there must be at least one female founder on the founding team with a significant equity position and C-level role. So we have plenty of businesses that are solo female, joint, you know, um, male-female, um, husband and wife as well. Uh, and a- and then, you know, two female founders. Uh, so that then had that driving force. We saw we had, you know, all of these fantastic businesses coming through the pre-accelerator that, that were struggling to raise funding. Um- Started the venture fund, um, launched that in 2021. Uh, and to date now have now eight active invest- investments across the US and Australia. Um, we invest in, uh, enterprise and consumer tech, and then there is a prop tech business as well that we've invested in out of Neighborlytics out of, out of Melbourne. Um, and it's that pre-Series A as well. So we've got in as early, um, as, as pre-seed, um, so pre-product and pre-revenue, um, all the way through to, uh, you know, seed plus rounds now. So, you know, we do... If you're not quite at the Series A level, but you're further than the seed, you know, at the seed plus.

AJ Chand: And how do you determine that? Do you determine that with, um, you know, product market fit, initial stages of revenue? Um, what... Can you tell us a little bit more about what attracted you to, say, Neighborlytics, um, it's a female led?

Marisa Warren: Yeah, absolutely. So the first point is, is really the, the main metric there is revenue.

AJ Chand: Yeah.

Marisa Warren: Uh, so you... A- and, and now really at Series A, you know, uh, VCs are expecting, you know, two to three million annual run rate, um, US as well. So if, if you're not at that point when it's coming to, to do a Series A raise then we're typically saying do s- do s- um, seed plus. So the interesting thing about Neighborlytics, so over the last few years, um, is obviously we've seen, and, um, Ari touched on this, we've just seen this, you know, and we all, we all have all lived it, just this massive shift in, um, where we live and work, um, impacted by, by COVID. Um, and what we really like about the Neighborlytics when we were reviewing to invest, um, is that they're, uh, they're providing this data insights and intelligence, um, both from a, um... And taking in social data, um, to understand why people, um, I- are using the different, um, spots in a neighborhood, um, but also what they are actually using, the assets in that neighborhood, how long they're spending there, what, what time they're, are going there. But the social sentiment, um, like that they're capturing, oh, this is a great place, and sharing. Um, but then also comparing, um, neighborhoods that are doing very well with neighborhoods that are not doing so well, and looking at the sort of insights between, between the two. Um, and how then it's really property developers and sort of your equivalent of sort of local council can then improve those, uh, neighborhoods to attract more people, um, and at different times of the day. Uh, and then also determine sort of the asset mix in those different neighborhoods. So that's what we really... Because it's, um, as Ari touched on, like it's, it's, it's a really interesting property market in the US at the moment. Um, you have this whole, um, very much there's, there's, there's a lot of the work from home. Um, my husband's actually a, a partner at Deloitte. He's been there for almost three years now. He's only been into the office three times. Um, so he works, he works from home. Um, he travels to customer sites now, now that... But you have a lot of that and it's, um, you have a lot of these corporates that, um, are saying, "Well, we'll have a, a flexible policy, so if you wanna work from home, you can." And so then that's driving different, um, behaviours. There's also a lot of, um, commercial, um, availability in areas like San Francisco. All these office spaces, they're just not being used. And so it's gonna be interesting to see what, um, the industry actually does with that. Uh, New York, after you had 9/11, um, they converted a lot of the buildings down in, um, sort of a- a- in the financial district to residential. Um, and so that, that worked really well. It'll be interesting to see in, in areas like San Francisco, what they do with the, those commercial buildings that, that just are not being fully utilized. Then you have on the, um, on the, uh, residential side. So we, we bought in Laguna Beach, what was it? End of... What year? End of '21. Um, and literally you... That's, that's a market that has very limited supply. Um, and the prices just, just kept going up, and a very competitive... You, you don't have an auction market there, but it's private sale. We bid on a house. We were successful in the end, but, but things like we had to, you know, produce a little video, um, of, of, of us to the, to the, um, to the, to the owner at that time. You know, family video saying what we loved about the property and how much we want it. Um, and, and, and we just, you know, offered a little bit over asking a- and were successful in it. But we had to do, you, you had to do creative things like that from a buyer perspective to get the properties. Um, 'cause it's also, you know, that sort of blind, even though it's private sale, sort of blind, blind auction type process. Watching the market now, there's still, there's... I've actually s- in that market there's actually more supply, but you have, um, with all the interest rates hikes, it's cooled down the market and you have properties that are sitting on 30, 40- 50, 60 day, like a lot longer versus the, you know, the two weeks they, they averaged before. Um, and you have constant price drops. So you have sellers that are still not sort of in tune with the market, um, and what people wanna pay. Um, and they're, and they're, and they're having to drop, drop prices. So it's, it's, it's really interesting. And then, and like every market is in it. New York's was, um, crazy befo- uh, like during, um, everyone left New York, rents dropped significantly. You could pick up really good deals. Now rents have actually gone up higher than w- what they were before COVID, um, because people have, people have come back. So every market's behaving very, very differently.

AJ Chand: And that is, um, that is actually very similar to what happened in Australia, right? Like, 2021, we, we didn't have to make videos, let's face it, but it was, um, it was, the market after COVID was just increasing at a rapid rate, like 20, 30% gains. And it was so competitive to try to get into the market, and that could have been because of the interest rates. But it was also, you would never think that coming out of a pandemic where there was so much disruption to business, to economy, that you would have property prices scaling the way they were. Um-

Marisa Warren: Yeah

AJ Chand: ... I just, I just found it very amusing that you had to create a video to win, to win a property. That's, uh, never heard of that before. But that's-

Marisa Warren: Yeah

AJ Chand: ... that is incredible. To the vendor itself. It wasn't, it was to the owner, it wasn't to the agent, right?

Marisa Warren: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

AJ Chand: Jeez, okay. So, so what do you think are the key differences between Australian and US prop techs when it comes to, say, funding?

Marisa Warren: From a funding perspective? Well, if I, um, like if I can just make some comments for, 'cause it's, it, it links in with that around the overall sort of health of, um, sort of the economies. Um, so it's, so it's interesting. We see, um, really in, in, in the US, yes, they've raised rates and, as I said, it's, it's had an impact really only cooling the housing market. Um, the underlying fundamentals within the US economy are just so strong. We, you know, record unemployment. Um, we're not allowing as many people into the country, so we have labor shortages across literally every industry. Even though you're having all of those big tech layoffs, um, the, it's, it's a- actually interesting when you look at the data, the, the staffing levels of these big tech companies are going back to around sort of early 2022. So it's not, um, you know, you had this insane hiring in, in 2021, um, and, uh, and, and last year it started to ease off, but it's, but it's not, um, yeah, it, it, it hasn't gone significantly backwards. So it is still fundamentally a really strong, um, economy. Uh, many of our investors and, and us, uh, we don't actually see the US going into a recession. We don't see that it's possible. The, the challenging part is what's going to happen with, with the inflation? Um, because that's, uh, that's, that's out of control, um, still. Um, and even if you keep raising rates, is that actually gonna have an impact because of all of the other positive business model fundamentals? Um, in Australia, it's a, a, we, we see it sort of as a fairly, um, similar story. From a, from a, an investment perspective, um, there is so much dry powder in both the US and Australia. You have venture funds still raising, you know, record money from LPs. Um, and they- they're sitting on that. They, they will become a point where they, you know, they have to deploy it. The US market is, is acting a lot more like the Australian market, in- investment market now. Before, the last 10 years, it used to be growth at all costs. Um, we, it, it didn't matter, um, you know, if you weren't making any money. We just wanna get, you know, h- how quickly can you get to, you know, a million users? And then we'll work out sort of the monetization strategy, um, and business model after that. Um, that's no longer the case. Now there's this focus on, okay, if you're a first time founder, uh, you, you, you have to have revenue coming through, um, through the door that's in a repeatable sales model, um, and lean on costs. Um, i- investors aren't liking the look of companies that spend, that have a really high monthly burn, and particularly on marketing and advertising. Um, so that's very much out of favour. Um, so yeah, it is the most conservative investment market that I've seen in the US, um, since probably the, the dot com days, um, dot com crash days. Uh, then in, um, prop tech, prop tech again is a, you know, you, you, you have a few player... You only have a, you know, a handful of players that are r- you know, focused on, um, on prop tech itself. You have some of the generalist funds, um, that will, that will dabble here and there, but, um, there, there certainly isn't, um, as many that are purely focused on prop tech.

AJ Chand: Definitely. So, so what's the vibe in the US at the moment? Has the funding for tech startups slowed or accelerated, do you think? I know you mentioned that a lot of VCs do have a lot of dry powder and there is a lot of funding to be deployed, but do you think it, in general, has it slowed or accelerated?

Marisa Warren: So it's interesting, before this down- so we, um, we start preparing our companies back in March of last year. Uh, we said, "Downturn's coming. We don't know if we're gonna go into recession. We don't know how deep and long it's gonna be, but let's shore up our balance sheets, ex- you know, e- extend as much runway." We sort of model- modeled out with some of them which ones had to r- um, do bridge rounds, um, versus from existing investors versus going out to, to market for, for new, um, deals. Um, so that's, that's sort of positioned them really well. Um, what you have now here, um, in the, in the US where you... It used to, before that, before sort of, you know, February, March of last year, it was an extremely competitive market. Um, hot deals would be done in, like, for, for investing would be done in, you know, two to three weeks, you know, from the time that they'd, you know, that the founders opened up the round to, to closing out the round. You'd have investors that they would have one conversation, um, with the founding team, and then after that present, present a term sheet. Um, that then presented a, you know, a lot of problems as well, where you've h- had some of these big profile, um, uh, tech businesses hitting the wall because the lack of DD, um, that the investors actually did. So now whereas, you know, it would've been, you know, sort of two, three, four weeks sort of really rapid, um, uh, funding rounds, it's now a number of months because they're wanting to go deeper on the DD. Again, US investors are acting more like Australian investors, um, saying, "We need to take our time. We need to get to know the, the, the founding team and, and management team a bit better, uh, and, uh, a- and really drill into the business."

AJ Chand: That is very similar to the feedback we're getting out of the VCs out of Australia as well. Like, typically before they used to spend two or three weeks before term sheet, but now they're spending around three or four months with the founders to get to know the business, to get to know the problem they're solving, which I don't think is actually a bad thing. I think it's, it, it, it has a lot more buy-in from, from the funding industry as, as a whole. Um, what does the next six to 12 months hold in the VC space, do you think?

Marisa Warren: Well, I, I'm actually incredibly optimistic about this year. Um, a- and I think, and there, there's a couple of... I mean, we do actually have four of our portfolio companies that are looking to expand to the US this year. Um, and, and part of that, they, once you ex- a- an, an Aussie business expand to the US, um, you have... and, and get good traction, um, it results in a, a, in still quite a significant valuation uplift, um, because you just... The, the, the pricing, you've still got the US still valuing, um, deals a lot higher than Australia. Uh, and, and technologies like ChatGPT and GPT-3 coming out, we've, a lot of our companies are, um, are using that either within their internal organisations, um, or within the product development side and, and it's, uh, it, it's, I think that's an incredible platform that is gonna be transformative for our industry. So like when these, you know, mobile devices sort of came out, it's that type of transformative. But, but overall, I, I'm actually quite, um, bullish this year.

AJ Chand: Yeah. That's great. That's good to hear. And yeah, like when we went in on a break, for example, in December and we came back in January or February, ChatGPT was out there, right? Like it's, um, the... I think the cost of resourcing now is so much lower because of ChatGPT. You could, you could, you could, you can write code, um, you know, or although it'd be a draft. You can write content. You can do a lot of things, um, that actually does reduce the, the time for the startup and the resourcing needs for the startup, which is, I think, great for the industry and, and great for tech in general. I think it's going to really take off. Um-

Marisa Warren: Yeah. Yeah. You, you, i- there's a, a strong likelihood that you'll see in the next five years you won't actually need to code anything. It's more just reviewing code versus actually doing it from the, from the ground up. Um, it's... So to be, yep, very, very

AJ Chand: Yeah

Marisa Warren: ...

AJ Chand: I think, I think it'll be great. Um, any advice for Aussie proptechs thinking of scaling into the US market?

Marisa Warren: Uh, you, you still do... So reve- I, I like to say revenue is queen. Um, you gotta, you gotta have consistent, repeatable sales revenue. Um, you need to get on the ground there. You know, every market is so fundamentally different. Even, uh, I mean, in California, I lived in LA for a bit, it's very different to, to Laguna Beach, um, you know, different to New York, different to Texas, d- different to s- like it's, every market is very different. Um, the one thing is understanding where your customers are, um, and, and basing yourself there for a... By far founder-led sales to start off to, to launching into the, to the US is the, the best way to go about it, um, and to really sort of understanding your market and how your customers, um, buy.

AJ Chand: Thank you, Marissa. I appreciate your time, and that's, um, that was some very valuable insight into, into how we can scale into the US. Um, and finally to you, Peter.

Peter Schravemade: Saved the best for last, didn't you, AJ?

AJ Chand: Uh, I did save the, the best for last. Um, I would like to also welcome you to the board of the Proptech Association.

Peter Schravemade: Thank you.

AJ Chand: So Peter is one of our newest members. Um- Peter, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself and the REACh program, please?

Peter Schravemade: Yeah. Well, I've, um, uh, without going all the way back, I've been in real estate since 1999, which makes me quite old. Um, really, that's all it does. Um, uh, uh, aside from running, um, actually operating in the real estate space, I was part of, um, Box Brownie, the, um, the proptech startup, I guess you would call it here. Uh, it was here on the Sunshine Coast, now a global operation. And, uh, now I'm with REACh Australia. Uh, and REACh is a, primarily a venture capital company, but it is the, the, it's the venture capital, um, and accelerator arm of Second Century Ventures, which is, um, the, attached to the National Association of Realtors over in the US. So we are... I'm, I'm effectively the Asia Pacific division of that, of that arm.

AJ Chand: Yeah. Excellent. Um, so I've heard a lot of things about REACh and Second Century Ventures. Obviously, a lot of startups, um, you know, in, in Australia, that's probably the one of the first sources that you go to to, um, to either get funding or to get some validation. So, you know, it's played a massive part in, in the Australian, uh, proptech space from the start. So since REACh is a global, um, incubator in the real estate space, what are some of the key trends you have noticed in the international markets when it comes to proptechs?

Peter Schravemade: Uh, well, I'm gonna echo what my learned friends have already said. I feel as though one of the trends at the moment is if you're not commercially viable as a proptech, you're gonna be experiencing some pain. Um, the funding, the funding has all but dried up. Um, I was, I was in the US at the start of last year in New York, and somebody was telling me about some crazy idea that they had valued at, at $38 million. And, um, you know, I, I didn't think the, the idea was even a good one. Um, but th- this was the valuation they had on the money that had been thrown at these people. And y- you kind of... Y- I, I just thought, you know, how, how far removed this was from the Box Brownie days when we, we rolled into people's places and said, "Could you give us funding?" And they were like, "No, get stuffed." And we'd leave with our tail between our legs and off we'd go. Um, so you know, I, I feel like all we've done is we've returned to the, uh, some, some semblance of normalcy and, um, I'm actually welcoming it. I know there are a lot of proptech companies that are going through a bit of pain. Um, and yes, I, I've seen the layoffs over in the US. A, a lot of them are my friends from the vendor industry that I knew over there. So, um, I'm feeling it particularly deeply at the moment. But, um, I, I do believe it is the... There, there's a bit of a vacuum when, um, we've gone through a period of time where it's pretty easy to come by capital, and now a lot of the in- investment companies have their hands in their pockets, despite having the money there. Um, so you know, we've already heard that both from Ari and Marissa. Uh, I, I'm seeing that a lot. Another big, um, another big factor that I'm, um, I know REACh is looking to and Second Century Ventures is big on, is we're looking for dual industry tech companies. So, um, we are obviously, uh, unashamedly proptech. We, we have members who are realtors or agents as we call them over here. And, um, those, those members mean that we are focused on proptech. But one of the m- more exciting areas that we like to see is when the proptech has a bit of a twist, um, where it might be involved in f- in finance, or it might be involved in construction or building, building tech, but also impacts on the, on the proptech market. A lot of the research that we've done suggests that those tech companies perform well over longer periods of time because when one industry dries up, um, there is another that they can rely on to go there. And indeed, Box Brownie, I don't, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but it is a dual industry, um, multiple industry tech company where you've got the proptech, um, but it's actually a marketing tech company. So they were heavily tied to MarTech and proptech and, and that, that's a trend that we're seeing, um, VCs look at particularly, uh, favourably. But, um, commercial viability, it'd have to be the biggest one at the moment.

AJ Chand: Yeah. I think multiple, multiple verticals is always, always better than the one, right? So you've got... I've seen a lot of crossover between proptech and FinTech, um, in the recent times. You know, like, um, processing payments or taking payments and also being part of proptech and being part of FinTech, which, which for the companies that can pull that off, I think that's, um, that's a better story to tell in general, I think. Um, so what do you think are the key differences between Australian and US proptech?

Peter Schravemade: Well, I'm gonna argue with Ari here. I'm gonna agree to disagree with him. Um, I believe the Australian property, um, industry is more mature than the American. We can have fights about this later. Um, maybe not from a, maybe not from a financial standpoint, but we've got a regulated industry here, heavily regulated by government. Um, so if I do something bad as a property, um, consultant here, I go to jail, um, as opposed to getting a $200 fine from an MLS or an association. So, uh, you know, there's a, there's a big difference if I stuff around in someone's trust account. And then, uh, on top of that, um, the market operates incredibly differently everywhere outside of North America. North America's kind of got its little insular shell. Big shell, big market, but, um... And we also punch way above our weight. Like our property industry is 10 trillion and the US is 40. Now, if you do the numbers just on population, we shouldn't have $10 trillion worth of, of a, of a property community here. So the addressable market is actually way bigger than, um, where it, where it should be, and that's the value of the Australian, uh, property technology community. Probably the, the other thing that I would say, um, that I see Ari laughing. We'll give him a chance to say something in the end. Um, but the other, the other thing I would point to has been a, a massive, um, issue for Australia versus US. I've, I've met US proptechs that survive just in Casper, Wyoming- Um, and for those of you who don't know where that is, that's in the middle of nowhere. Um, but I've, I've met proptech companies that can, that can do that because of the size, the sheer scale of the market. But if you show me a proptech company that can just survive in, in Newcastle or Coffs Harbour here in Australia, um, you know, I, I haven't, I haven't seen it. Um, the, the size of the market allows for more players to be in the American market, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're more mature. It just means anyone with an idea that actually works in, in one particular area can actually make a successful career out of it. So I, I have felt that when, um, uh, Australian proptechs go across to the US, a lot of the, uh, smarter investors actually, their ears prick up and they are treated as being more mature. Because by the time you're on a plane and you're over in the US, you've done something right to be there, um, to even earn, earn that spot. The cost of just being over there alone is quite difficult. Um, and then we've got, you know, the Australia versus, um, the Australian versus the US dollar to compete with, um, and, and, and all of the challenges that come with that. So, uh, I, you know, I, I feel when I look at an Australian property technology, uh, startup, they've survived in a particularly harsher environment. Um, and if, and if they've done well in that, then quite often going to the US, if the, if the idea actually fits into a different market, um, they can do quite well over there.

AJ Chand: So on touching on that too, so you might have some case studies on, on some of your portfolio companies scaling into, scaling global within the Reach program because Reach is a global organisation.

Peter Schravemade: Yeah.

AJ Chand: Um, any of them come to mind?

Peter Schravemade: Yeah. Well, I mean, Box Brownie is probably central. The, the, that approach I don't think had, had been done before. Um, there, there's two d- there's two different approaches that I can identify with companies scaling to the US. There's a top-down approach, and what I mean by that is that, uh, if you look at RateMyAgent or Open at the moment, they are on a top-down approach, um, where they've gone over to the US, they're seeking franchises, MLSs, associations, uh, large brokerages or super agents or even the coaches associated with that, and they will try and, um, get a decision made at the top that affects all of the agents that sort of sit underneath that pile. And the other way is the bottom-up approach or grassroots, as I would call it. Um, it's a heavy boots on the ground presence. And that, that would be the Box Brownie approach. MarketBuy is another company that, that are looking to do that at the moment. Um, but you know, uh, the, that grassroots a- approach is way more difficult. It, it, it cuts out the top-down approach and it means that you're after the hearts and minds of the agents over there, which is v- very, very difficult. Uh, it's a difficult, uh, gig to pull off. But if you can pull it off, um, it embeds you in agents regardl- a- a- agencies, franchises, MLSs, associations. They have to look at you because it's a popular vote rather than a, um, you know, a I'm here to, to, uh, brown nose to the owner of whatever the franchise. I'm, I'm putting a generalization out there. But they are the two different types of approach that I can see have been employed by rich companies and we've got Box Brownie, RateMyAgent, Open, ActivePipe. Well, ActivePipe just acquired MarketBuy, Futurerent, Ubipark, Pam, they're all making plays at the US. And there are more. Um, I think this year alone I've done, uh, nearly six strategies for Reach companies who are looking to go to the US in particular.

AJ Chand: That's interesting. I think there is a lot that's going down and, and like you said, the top-down or the bottom, like, you know, there's no right answer to that, is there?

Peter Schravemade: No. No.

AJ Chand: Because you could spend so much time at the top trying to filter it down, but then not pay attention to the bottom, which could potentially be a problem with the market fit for the US as well, because you haven't got any of the, potentially the, the low end of the cons- consumers or the businesses trying your tech out too.

Peter Schravemade: Yeah. And I, I, I feel like that speaks to un- understanding the North American market from an Australian perspective. Um, you know, if you just go over there and go, "We're gonna do things the same way we've done them in Australia," you're, you're a bit of a moron. It, it just doesn't work like that way. Um, and, and you have to, you actually have to go over there, ask a friend. Um, you know, our first forays from Box Brownie into the US were just fraught with mistakes. Um, uh, I mean, Ari and Marissa might get this, but our first advert to the US for Box Brownie was, "Would you like warm, homely furniture in, in your listing?" You know, 'cause we were advertising virtual stageing. Now, homely in the US means crap furniture. Um, but I didn't know that. I didn't know that. You know, I'm getting all these people post underneath it go, "What an idiot. Fire your marketing manager." Well, that was me. So, you know, I'm running around, I'm running around trying to sort out what the problem was. But we've actually got a store over here, AJ, called Homely. Um, it sells furniture. We've got a, we've got a, um, a, a portal called Homely. Um, you know, the Americans just wouldn't go to that because that's like squatter's furniture. Well, I didn't know this. I, I had no idea. And so, you know, what that speaks to, what that lesson should speak to is if you're a proptech company and you're listening to this, you know, you've got to go over there and have a look at it. You've got to a- actually sound out and test the market. I really like what the guys from MarketBuy have been doing. Um, they, they've gone over to multiple events and multiple, um, multiple different trade shows or conferences and they've, they've sort of, um, you know, how does this work with you? And then they've got beta testing, um, with large, medium, small brokerages to go, does this actually fit with you? And they, they found they had to remodel their complete product, um, in order to do that. So very smart approach, um, by those guys. But yeah, it's, um, it's not something that you just decide one day, I'm gonna flip this switch and we're gonna go to the US and we're gonna make money. I know, I know you get stars in your eyes when you look at the size of the market or the amount of real estate agents over there, but you've really got to be a bit smarter about how you approach it.

AJ Chand: So what, what does the next six to 12 months hold in the proptech space in your, in your opinion?

Peter Schravemade: I'm with Marissa. Opportunity. Um, whenever, whenever e- everyone's talking doom and gloom, I, I get excited because there's an opportunity that, that exists out there, even in, in, in s- you know, in markets where it's slightly depressed. And yeah, they're depressed over in the US at the moment, you know. You just have to pick up a phone to any of my friends over in the proptech industry, and they're fearful of their jobs. You know, I've got people reaching out to me asking me, "I may not have this job next week, so do you have one, um, that you could suggest for me?" And I, I can't remember the last time that that happened. Um, probably when realtor.com laid off a ton of workers, I had that happen then, but that was isolated. Uh, so yeah, I, I think in the proptech space over there, it's particularly doom and gloom. Over here we've seen more mergers and acquisitions, and I, I do believe that comes back to what we said before about proptech's, um, uh, their, their solvency, their ability to stand on their own two feet and the cash running out from VCs. 'Cause you'll see a lot of those M&As happen when they're unable to fund themselves and, and I think we're seeing a lot of that at the moment in response to, uh, we're not gonna get the funding, so now might be a time to cut our losses and let's, let's either sell or let's merge, uh, to, to continue on. But, um, six- uh, six to 12 months, if I had to list the opportunity, I feel as though, um, you know, for Australians looking to go over to the US, I think this is great timing, uh, to get your name out in the industry. There's less noise in the proptech space. A lot of the, the companies have sort of filtered out. So, um, on the vendor hall of Inman Connect in Las Vegas last year, 33% of the companies were from this region. Um, and that's, that's a- that used to be Germany. Germany used to have... Like, you used to go to Inman, and Germany would have all of the proptech companies, and there's no Germans there now. It's Australia, New Zealand. Um, I see, uh, a, a bloke who writes, uh, with, for Vendorelli. His name's Greg Robinson, former Reach, uh, mentor. He said that Australia's been n- um, viewed as the new Canada of, uh, of proptech startups. So, um, he, he... And that's a compliment, just in case you're wondering. Which means, which means we're, we're the poor man, we're the poor man's, um, uh, pool of where to go to. And, and, and on that, I th- I, I do agree that there's... Uh, Marissa made a comment earlier about the, they've got the powder there to buy. Um, Australian proptech companies are viewed as being way more affordable than the n- the US companies just because of the dollar alone. Um, you know, so, uh, there are a lot of VCs over there who would be eyeing off, um, you know, purchase, purchases, uh, or, that are, that are easy for them or, or simple if you can demonstrate as to how you fit into the market.

AJ Chand: Well, thank you for that, Peter. So we do have about three minutes left, so if there's any questions, please feel free to pop them into the chat and we'll be happy to answer them. Um, I think, you know, overall, from what I, from what I hear from Marissa and yourself, Peter, is that, you know, there's g- there's plenty of opportunity. You're, you're, you're actively investing in companies and, and Australian and New Zealand proptechs are actually doing quite well it seems. So this is, um, this is all very reassuring to our startup community and I think we are seeing similar, similar things. And I guess markets will always change and, and, and trends will come and go, interest rates will come and go, and I think what makes good, great founders is the ability to lead through crisis and changing markets, right?

Marisa Warren: Yeah.

AJ Chand: Um, making great products.

Marisa Warren: Yeah. And if I can just add, I think h- if you see Aussie founders are much more used to the, the whole focus on business model fundamentals, focus on revenue and ensuring that, whereas US founders, they're not used to that, right? They have to now learn that behaviour. Um, so it's, i- it's going to take them a bit longer to, you know, to get there, and that's the real competitive advantage that Aussie founders have. But you do, like... You know, Peter and I both raised the point, you know, you have to get over there. You have to understand the market that you're playing in and, and keep that sort of more, you know, Aussie conservative mindset, 'cause that is going to set you up well, um, in, in this current economic situation.

AJ Chand: So if I was to ask you a question, say if you were to go to the US, and the minute you land, right? Like, what would your first point of call be? You're a proptech that's looking at scaling into the US. What would you set your intention as when you land there? What, what are the sort of steps that you would follow, say for the first w- couple of days at least?

Peter Schravemade: Um, I, I can f- I can field this if you want. Um, I-

AJ Chand: Yeah

Peter Schravemade: ... I would, I would have a plan before you get on the plane to start off with, AJ. That's, that's number one. Um, but there, there'd be, there'd be four channels that I look at. Well, one would be major conferences and events to go to. I would be looking at, at winning the hearts and mind of influencers. Influencers in the m- the American property industry really are really big and they grow your company free, um, if you service their needs. Um, uh, and that's, there's nothing weird about that. That's just, you know, they wanna be on the cutting edge of, of proptech and if you've got something that is cutting edge, they love sharing it, and you wanna get it out there to influencers and coaches. They, they are big in that space. The, the third thing is I'd be trying to figure out, um, how to get a content marketing strategy for your proptech up that, um, involves media picking you up free of charge. This is, this is going on a budget. Um, and the, the, the fourth thing would be boots on the ground. You need to plan which conferences and events you're gonna be at, and Marissa spoke to this before as well. Obviously Box Brownie was huge at this, you know. Um, but we would, we would go to as many conferences as it took to get the, the messageing out there. Um, but, y- y- you know, all of those- All of those sort of shelved under what's your target audience, um, who are, who are these people and where, where are they at? Um, but that- that'd be the four strategies for American companies. Another really cool way in is through Canada. Don't land in America. Land in, in Canada. Figure out how the market works in controlled circumstances and then embark on a launch, and we've seen, um, Open and Rate My Agent both did that.

AJ Chand: Excellent. Thank you, Peter. Ari, any closing comments?

Ari Ginsburg: No, I, you know, I, I, I tend to agree with, with Peter's, uh, strategy just now. Uh, um, uh, you know, you know, I, I actually think another thing that, that you may wanna do beforehand is find out who your competitors are. Have a conversation with them. See if they'll be willing to talk. Sometimes people are just willing to talk and y- you can sort of strategize that way. Um, you know, I, I also think that, you know, Marissa had a really good point earlier when she talked about the, there, there's, there's so many differences in, in, in the markets, in the, in the MSAs within the United States that it- it's difficult to just say, "I'm, I'm gonna go to Laguna or I'm gonna go to Tallahassee," because there are just a ton of markets in between. I think you need to understand your market and, and what your plan is. You know, you need to have a good plan before you, before you head over.

AJ Chand: Excellent. Thank you. That's, that's all we had time for today. Guys, it's been, it's been eye-opening actually. It's been, it's been really good. It's been really refreshing and I appreciate your time, and our community appreciates the time. Um, yeah. And what, this video will be recorded and lift- um, put onto our channels as well. Feel free to connect with anyone on LinkedIn that's, um, that's on this panel. I do appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Um, and to the Proptech Association, thank you to all the board members within the Proptech Association. I appreciate you putting through the event and also to Stone & Chalk. I appreciate your time. Thank you, everyone.